Tantra in Medicine

Forum for discussion of Tibetan Buddhism. Questions specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
Post Reply
mabw
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2021 4:20 pm

Tantra in Medicine

Post by mabw »

Hi,

Mindfulness has been included in psychological treatments for some time. I personally experienced it from a counsellor. Have Tantric ideas been / are being studied to be included in such treatments? I remember listening to a talk whereby the speaker mentioned this briefly, but nothing concrete AFAIR.

Thank you in advance.
User avatar
Lingpupa
Posts: 761
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:13 am
Location: Lunigiana (Tuscany)

Re: Tantra in Medicine

Post by Lingpupa »

As a (would-be) tantric practitioner, my reaction to any therapist claiming to incorporate tantric techniques would be to walk on by. Fast.
A serious tantric practitioner who has properly studied the 4 medical tantra and has bodhisattva motivation - now that's another matter!
All best wishes

"The profundity of your devotion to your lama is not measured by your ability to turn a blind eye."
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 17089
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Tantra in Medicine

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

mabw wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 7:09 am Hi,

Mindfulness has been included in psychological treatments for some time. I personally experienced it from a counsellor. Have Tantric ideas been / are being studied to be included in such treatments? I remember listening to a talk whereby the speaker mentioned this briefly, but nothing concrete AFAIR.

Thank you in advance.
Not really, there is Feeding Your Demons by Lama Tsultrim Allione, which is essentially a practice based on Chöd. It is used by some therapists.

However, there have already been techniques like that for a while in both Jungian and Gestalt psychology - in terms of involving visualization, processing emotion through created or visualized images, etc. For instance the "empty chair" in Gestalt Therapy is very similar.

https://www.mentalhelp.net/blogs/gestal ... technique/

This is quite similar to the Feeding Your Demons technique, but with less colorful/imaginative imagery.

It is not really like Tantra though because the view and purpose of Tantra is just so different from Western Psychology. There are certainly treatments that involve visualization and such, but I would not call them similar to Tantra beyond that.

The other thing about such techniques is they generally require a different level of stability in the practitioner, even in exposure therapies that involve visualization, there is a lot of preliminary work (often involving images that are meant as a kind of "protection" during the recall of traumatic events) for someone to become stable enough to deal with visualizing traumatic events, etc. So techniques like this cannot ever be as widespread as something like mindfulness, which by and large is an exceptionally "safe" therapeutic intervention.

Things like this are more specialized by my understanding, very powerful under the right circumstances, but carrying a lot more caveats than something like Mindfulness.

So yeah, there are definitely techniques that involve visualization, switching roles with others, using imagery to help as a coping skill, etc. but this is just a surface similarity in method, I think. They work because these sorts of method generally work, the purpose is different, though not necessarily in conflict. Western Psychology barely touches on the things to which Tantra is directly oriented, so there's some method overlap, but that's mainly it.

Some people claim (usually people not well read in Western Psychology) that Western Psych and therapeutic methods are only "about making people happy" in some surface way - this is definitely untrue, Western Pysch goes deep in some places and crosses over into Philosophy, etc, and it's purpose is a bit more wide ranging, but it simply does not adhere to a Dharmic view of how things are, and so they can only meet so much.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
mabw
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2021 4:20 pm

Re: Tantra in Medicine

Post by mabw »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 7:37 am
Thank you. Interesting. Yup, not expecting Western Psy to have any similarity to Tantra. Just wondering of Tantric ideas or techniques incorporated. What you have mentioned is what I am looking for. Thank you.
User avatar
climb-up
Posts: 1197
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:32 am

Re: Tantra in Medicine

Post by climb-up »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 7:37 am
mabw wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 7:09 am Hi,

Mindfulness has been included in psychological treatments for some time. I personally experienced it from a counsellor. Have Tantric ideas been / are being studied to be included in such treatments? I remember listening to a talk whereby the speaker mentioned this briefly, but nothing concrete AFAIR.

Thank you in advance.
Not really, there is Feeding Your Demons by Lama Tsultrim Allione, which is essentially a practice based on Chöd. It is used by some therapists.

However, there have already been techniques like that for a while in both Jungian and Gestalt psychology - in terms of involving visualization, processing emotion through created or visualized images, etc. For instance the "empty chair" in Gestalt Therapy is very similar.

https://www.mentalhelp.net/blogs/gestal ... technique/

This is quite similar to the Feeding Your Demons technique, but with less colorful/imaginative imagery.
My Impression is that the similairty between FYD and Gestalt empty chair comes from Lama Allione specificially incorporating the latter into the former. She similarly inorporated active imagination techniques into the dakini practice she describes in her book "Wisdom Rising."
I think she was actually criticized by several teachers for incorporating western psychology into the practices becasue they thought that it implied that the practices were not enough on their own (I'm not criticizing, I think FYD is absolutely wodnerful).

Some people claim (usually people not well read in Western Psychology) that Western Psych and therapeutic methods are only "about making people happy" in some surface way - this is definitely untrue, Western Pysch goes deep in some places and crosses over into Philosophy, etc, and it's purpose is a bit more wide ranging, but it simply does not adhere to a Dharmic view of how things are, and so they can only meet so much.
I definitely agree that western psychology has a lot to it, but does it fundamentally not adhere to dharmic thoughts (as far as there can be said tobe a monolithic "it" in psychology)?
I haven't read Mark Epstein's books, but I'm under the impression that he finds therapy and dharma to be totally compatible. IDK, maybe thats wrong?
"Death's second name is 'omnipresent.' On the relative truth it seems we become separate. But on the absolute there is no separation." Lama Dawa
User avatar
climb-up
Posts: 1197
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:32 am

Re: Tantra in Medicine

Post by climb-up »

I am under the impression (and I'm no expert, just some randome guy talking, lol) that there are no tantric techniques that are widely practiced amongst western therapists; but I am also under the impression that therapists can and do inorporate whatever they feel helpful into their practice (withing certain guidlines).
I know that many therapists include things like shamanism (primarily the "core shamanism" of Michael Harner, of course), reiki, sound healing, etc., so I'm sure that there are therapists who either have vajrayana training, or an interest, and incorporate some techniques (of course, since it's not tantra without a guru, this wouldn't really be tantra but something inspired by or adjacent to).
A quick google search of "Therapist vajrayana" revealed several therapsits who mention their tantric training and several who incorporate their understanding of pure vision into the therapy session.
"Death's second name is 'omnipresent.' On the relative truth it seems we become separate. But on the absolute there is no separation." Lama Dawa
User avatar
climb-up
Posts: 1197
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:32 am

Re: Tantra in Medicine

Post by climb-up »

One more thing, although different than what you asking; at least some (most? all? I'm not sure) Tibetan Medicine practitioners incorporate tantra into their practice for both physical and psychological issues (things such as the nejang from kalachakra, vajra recitation or mantra).
"Death's second name is 'omnipresent.' On the relative truth it seems we become separate. But on the absolute there is no separation." Lama Dawa
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 17089
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Tantra in Medicine

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

I have a teacher who is a Tibetan Loppon and Western-trained practicing therapist, the way he put it is that Western Therapy and Dharma are not incompatible, it’s just that therapy is a much smaller ‘box’ than Dharma is.

So the implication for a Dharma practitioner is that any such practices may be quite helpful in context, they just take a narrower view.

As to techniques, yeah, I think it’s quite a range. It also depends on who the client is. If you are a Buddhist therapist and have a Buddhist client, obviously it becomes a way different situation than if a client was an atheist, Christian, what have you.

I even ran into this as a drug treatment guy.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
User avatar
climb-up
Posts: 1197
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:32 am

Re: Tantra in Medicine

Post by climb-up »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 7:11 pm that Western Therapy and Dharma are not incompatible, it’s just that therapy is a much smaller ‘box’ than Dharma is.
Yes, that totally makes sense!
"Death's second name is 'omnipresent.' On the relative truth it seems we become separate. But on the absolute there is no separation." Lama Dawa
Post Reply

Return to “Tibetan Buddhism”