Tibetan View of Tendai and Shingon Vajrayana

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Dharmalight889
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Tibetan View of Tendai and Shingon Vajrayana

Post by Dharmalight889 »

What is the Tibetan view of Tendai and Shingon Vajrayana? I know the practices may be different, although do Tibetan's view the other paths as an authentic way to reach Buddhahood in one lifetime?
GrapeLover
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Re: Tibetan View of Tendai and Shingon Vajrayana

Post by GrapeLover »

These traditions don’t have Highest Yoga Tantra transmission, practising only the outer tantras, and as such, at least one Tibetan view (as represented in this essay for instance: https://treasuryoflives.org/zh/foundations/view/8) is that it would take multiple of our human lifetimes to attain full awakening using these systems. If you lived long enough, however, it would only take one lifetime, so it’s a ‘problem’ with the time available rather than the system per se.

I’m sure there must be differing views.
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FiveSkandhas
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Re: Tibetan View of Tendai and Shingon Vajrayana

Post by FiveSkandhas »

I think full enlightenment is certainly possible through East Asian esotericism and I think attempts to shoehorn Shingon or Tendai into the Tibetan paradigm are mistaken. Shingon and Tendai both have evolved unique features that make them different from the lower Tantras as formulated by Himalayan Buddhists. Just my opinion.
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Malcolm
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Re: Tibetan View of Tendai and Shingon Vajrayana

Post by Malcolm »

Dharmalight889 wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:13 pm What is the Tibetan view of Tendai and Shingon Vajrayana? I know the practices may be different, although do Tibetan's view the other paths as an authentic way to reach Buddhahood in one lifetime?
There is no view because traditionally, Tibetans were unaware of what was happening in Japan. However, in modern times HH Sakya Trizen had opportunity to discuss this with senior Shingon leaders, and they found no essential difference in how yoga tantra is practiced in Tibet and Japan.
Malcolm
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Re: Tibetan View of Tendai and Shingon Vajrayana

Post by Malcolm »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:18 pm Shingon and Tendai both have evolved unique features that make them different from the lower Tantras as formulated by Himalayan Buddhists.
This is not factually correct, at least with regard to Shingon.
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Seishin
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Re: Tibetan View of Tendai and Shingon Vajrayana

Post by Seishin »

It might be worth concidering that Tendai and Shingon came to Japan from China in the early 800s and changed little after this - i.e., no new Tantra lineages went to Japan after this period. Even in China, Tantra lineages were still faily "new" at the time of Kukai and Saicho, having been introduced in the early 700s. However, Tantra in India continued to evolve, making its way to Tibet both prior and long after the 700-800s (according to google, between 500-1200CE, but that might be wrong). So, we could say that Tendai and Shingon are "young" or "early" Tantra. Some also say that Tendai and Shingon aren't even Tantra, being such an early form, and are more correctly described as Mantrayana.
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Re: Tibetan View of Tendai and Shingon Vajrayana

Post by Bristollad »

Seishin wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:22 am Some also say that Tendai and Shingon aren't even Tantra, being such an early form, and are more correctly described as Mantrayana.
In the teachings I've received from my Tibetan Gelug teachers, these two terms are simply synonyms and identical in meaning. What do you understand the difference to be?
The antidote—to be free from the suffering of samsara—you need to be free from delusion and karma; you need to be free from ignorance, the root of samsara. So you need to meditate on emptiness. That is what you need. Lama Zopa Rinpoche
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Seishin
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Re: Tibetan View of Tendai and Shingon Vajrayana

Post by Seishin »

Bristollad wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:59 am In the teachings I've received from my Tibetan Gelug teachers, these two terms are simply synonyms and identical in meaning. What do you understand the difference to be?
I don't know, TBH. I've read various different arguments and discussions on this topic. FWIW in the Tendai and Shingon schools the terms of synonymous.
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Re: Tibetan View of Tendai and Shingon Vajrayana

Post by Malcolm »

Seishin wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:22 am Some also say that Tendai and Shingon aren't even Tantra, being such an early form, and are more correctly described as Mantrayana.
There is no difference between Mantrayāna and Vajrayāna, the term comes from what are termed in late Indian parlance, the "lower tantras." It is worth nothing that the division into four divisions of tantras comes from the explanatory tantras of Guhyasamaja. Prior to this, in the mid 8th Century, Buddhaguhya, the major commentator on the Mahavairocana Abhisambodhi, divided tantras into three classes, kriya, carya, and yoga. He was a contempary of Kukai and Saicho.
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Re: Tibetan View of Tendai and Shingon Vajrayana

Post by Danny »

Malcolm, is this a caste system? Kalachakra, Guhyasamaja etc predominantly for the ruling class? Regents, lords, kings etc? Kings and lords, regency unable or unwilling to relinquish their lifestyles.
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Re: Tibetan View of Tendai and Shingon Vajrayana

Post by Malcolm »

Danny wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:12 pm Malcolm, is this a caste system? Kalachakra, Guhyasamaja etc predominantly for the ruling class? Regents, lords, kings etc? Kings and lords, regency unable or unwilling to relinquish their lifestyles.
The story of the origins of Guhysamaja have to do with Indrabhuti's inability to give up his 1000 wives. But in reality, anuttarayoga tantra is for śūdras; kriya is for brahmins; carya is for kṣatriyas; and yoga tantra is for vaiśyas.
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Re: Tibetan View of Tendai and Shingon Vajrayana

Post by Danny »

Thanks.
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Re: Tibetan View of Tendai and Shingon Vajrayana

Post by Charlie123 »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:19 pm

anuttarayoga tantra is for śūdras; kriya is for brahmins; carya is for kṣatriyas; and yoga tantra is for vaiśyas.
That is really interesting.
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Re: Tibetan View of Tendai and Shingon Vajrayana

Post by Matylda »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:19 pm
But in reality, anuttarayoga tantra is for śūdras; kriya is for brahmins; carya is for kṣatriyas; and yoga tantra is for vaiśyas.
So if one is not from any of these classes, then there is no tantra for the unfortunate? Foreigners not included? :D
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Re: Tibetan View of Tendai and Shingon Vajrayana

Post by Malcolm »

Matylda wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:44 am
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:19 pm
But in reality, anuttarayoga tantra is for śūdras; kriya is for brahmins; carya is for kṣatriyas; and yoga tantra is for vaiśyas.
So if one is not from any of these classes, then there is no tantra for the unfortunate? Foreigners not included? :D
We are shudras.
Giovanni
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Re: Tibetan View of Tendai and Shingon Vajrayana

Post by Giovanni »

What a very interesting thread…so what about the fruits of these practices? Are there for example records of attainment of the Rainbow Body in Shingon or Tendai?
Malcolm
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Re: Tibetan View of Tendai and Shingon Vajrayana

Post by Malcolm »

Giovanni wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 1:20 pm What a very interesting thread…so what about the fruits of these practices? Are there for example records of attainment of the Rainbow Body in Shingon or Tendai?
Legend has it that Kukai is in eternal samadhi in a cave on Mt. Koya.
Dharmalight889
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Re: Tibetan View of Tendai and Shingon Vajrayana

Post by Dharmalight889 »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 6:37 pm
Dharmalight889 wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:13 pm What is the Tibetan view of Tendai and Shingon Vajrayana? I know the practices may be different, although do Tibetan's view the other paths as an authentic way to reach Buddhahood in one lifetime?
There is no view because traditionally, Tibetans were unaware of what was happening in Japan. However, in modern times HH Sakya Trizen had opportunity to discuss this with senior Shingon leaders, and they found no essential difference in how yoga tantra is practiced in Tibet and Japan.
Very interesting. I would be curious what if any significant differences there are between Tendai and Tibetan tantric practices. Or even the difference between Shingon and Tendai tantric practices. I have just recently began researching more about Tendai, although information about Shingon is very limited.
Matylda
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Re: Tibetan View of Tendai and Shingon Vajrayana

Post by Matylda »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 12:56 pm We are shudras.
Thank you.
So nn-Indian people could practice only highest tantra?
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Re: Tibetan View of Tendai and Shingon Vajrayana

Post by Malcolm »

Matylda wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:36 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 12:56 pm We are shudras.
Thank you.
So nn-Indian people could practice only highest tantra?
It’s the most effective kind in this degenerate age, so yes.
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