Tibetan View of Tendai and Shingon Vajrayana
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Tibetan View of Tendai and Shingon Vajrayana
What is the Tibetan view of Tendai and Shingon Vajrayana? I know the practices may be different, although do Tibetan's view the other paths as an authentic way to reach Buddhahood in one lifetime?
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Re: Tibetan View of Tendai and Shingon Vajrayana
These traditions don’t have Highest Yoga Tantra transmission, practising only the outer tantras, and as such, at least one Tibetan view (as represented in this essay for instance: https://treasuryoflives.org/zh/foundations/view/8) is that it would take multiple of our human lifetimes to attain full awakening using these systems. If you lived long enough, however, it would only take one lifetime, so it’s a ‘problem’ with the time available rather than the system per se.
I’m sure there must be differing views.
I’m sure there must be differing views.
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Re: Tibetan View of Tendai and Shingon Vajrayana
I think full enlightenment is certainly possible through East Asian esotericism and I think attempts to shoehorn Shingon or Tendai into the Tibetan paradigm are mistaken. Shingon and Tendai both have evolved unique features that make them different from the lower Tantras as formulated by Himalayan Buddhists. Just my opinion.
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi
"Just be kind." -Atisha
"Just be kind." -Atisha
Re: Tibetan View of Tendai and Shingon Vajrayana
There is no view because traditionally, Tibetans were unaware of what was happening in Japan. However, in modern times HH Sakya Trizen had opportunity to discuss this with senior Shingon leaders, and they found no essential difference in how yoga tantra is practiced in Tibet and Japan.Dharmalight889 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:13 pm What is the Tibetan view of Tendai and Shingon Vajrayana? I know the practices may be different, although do Tibetan's view the other paths as an authentic way to reach Buddhahood in one lifetime?
Re: Tibetan View of Tendai and Shingon Vajrayana
This is not factually correct, at least with regard to Shingon.FiveSkandhas wrote: ↑Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:18 pm Shingon and Tendai both have evolved unique features that make them different from the lower Tantras as formulated by Himalayan Buddhists.
Re: Tibetan View of Tendai and Shingon Vajrayana
It might be worth concidering that Tendai and Shingon came to Japan from China in the early 800s and changed little after this - i.e., no new Tantra lineages went to Japan after this period. Even in China, Tantra lineages were still faily "new" at the time of Kukai and Saicho, having been introduced in the early 700s. However, Tantra in India continued to evolve, making its way to Tibet both prior and long after the 700-800s (according to google, between 500-1200CE, but that might be wrong). So, we could say that Tendai and Shingon are "young" or "early" Tantra. Some also say that Tendai and Shingon aren't even Tantra, being such an early form, and are more correctly described as Mantrayana.
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Re: Tibetan View of Tendai and Shingon Vajrayana
In the teachings I've received from my Tibetan Gelug teachers, these two terms are simply synonyms and identical in meaning. What do you understand the difference to be?
The antidote—to be free from the suffering of samsara—you need to be free from delusion and karma; you need to be free from ignorance, the root of samsara. So you need to meditate on emptiness. That is what you need. Lama Zopa Rinpoche
Re: Tibetan View of Tendai and Shingon Vajrayana
I don't know, TBH. I've read various different arguments and discussions on this topic. FWIW in the Tendai and Shingon schools the terms of synonymous.Bristollad wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:59 am In the teachings I've received from my Tibetan Gelug teachers, these two terms are simply synonyms and identical in meaning. What do you understand the difference to be?
Re: Tibetan View of Tendai and Shingon Vajrayana
There is no difference between Mantrayāna and Vajrayāna, the term comes from what are termed in late Indian parlance, the "lower tantras." It is worth nothing that the division into four divisions of tantras comes from the explanatory tantras of Guhyasamaja. Prior to this, in the mid 8th Century, Buddhaguhya, the major commentator on the Mahavairocana Abhisambodhi, divided tantras into three classes, kriya, carya, and yoga. He was a contempary of Kukai and Saicho.
Re: Tibetan View of Tendai and Shingon Vajrayana
Malcolm, is this a caste system? Kalachakra, Guhyasamaja etc predominantly for the ruling class? Regents, lords, kings etc? Kings and lords, regency unable or unwilling to relinquish their lifestyles.
Re: Tibetan View of Tendai and Shingon Vajrayana
The story of the origins of Guhysamaja have to do with Indrabhuti's inability to give up his 1000 wives. But in reality, anuttarayoga tantra is for śūdras; kriya is for brahmins; carya is for kṣatriyas; and yoga tantra is for vaiśyas.
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Re: Tibetan View of Tendai and Shingon Vajrayana
Re: Tibetan View of Tendai and Shingon Vajrayana
What a very interesting thread…so what about the fruits of these practices? Are there for example records of attainment of the Rainbow Body in Shingon or Tendai?
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Re: Tibetan View of Tendai and Shingon Vajrayana
Very interesting. I would be curious what if any significant differences there are between Tendai and Tibetan tantric practices. Or even the difference between Shingon and Tendai tantric practices. I have just recently began researching more about Tendai, although information about Shingon is very limited.Malcolm wrote: ↑Thu Jul 22, 2021 6:37 pmThere is no view because traditionally, Tibetans were unaware of what was happening in Japan. However, in modern times HH Sakya Trizen had opportunity to discuss this with senior Shingon leaders, and they found no essential difference in how yoga tantra is practiced in Tibet and Japan.Dharmalight889 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:13 pm What is the Tibetan view of Tendai and Shingon Vajrayana? I know the practices may be different, although do Tibetan's view the other paths as an authentic way to reach Buddhahood in one lifetime?