Validation statement in Vajrayana

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Vajrasambhava
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Validation statement in Vajrayana

Post by Vajrasambhava »

Hi,
The models which stabilish how phenomena rise in Tantra teachings are directly experienced by practicians/masters or are merely philosofical assertions?
i.e. It is said in Tantras that matter rises from consciousness (and not viveversa), is this assumption stated and confirmed by subtle experiences that can occur practicing the two stages or by inferential reasoning?

Thank you in advance :smile:
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heart
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Re: Validation statement in Vajrayana

Post by heart »

Vajrasambhava wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:24 pm Hi,
The models which stabilish how phenomena rise in Tantra teachings are directly experienced by practicians/masters or are merely philosofical assertions?
i.e. It is said in Tantras that matter rises from consciousness (and not viveversa), is this assumption stated and confirmed by subtle experiences that can occur practicing the two stages or by inferential reasoning?

Thank you in advance :smile:
Matter don't arise from consciousness, appearances do.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Vajrasambhava
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Re: Validation statement in Vajrayana

Post by Vajrasambhava »

Ok, and this is validated in tantras in which way? Directly experienced or by inferential reasoning?

Anyway, I always thought that matter comes from mind. If it was not, there would not be past lives, future lives and so on
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heart
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Re: Validation statement in Vajrayana

Post by heart »

Vajrasambhava wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 7:14 pm Ok, and this is validated in tantras in which way? Directly experienced or by inferential reasoning?

Anyway, I always thought that matter comes from mind. If it was not, there would not be past lives, future lives and so on
The view is validated both by reasoning and by practice of meditation.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
rai
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Re: Validation statement in Vajrayana

Post by rai »

heart wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:44 pm
Vajrasambhava wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:24 pm Hi,
The models which stabilish how phenomena rise in Tantra teachings are directly experienced by practicians/masters or are merely philosofical assertions?
i.e. It is said in Tantras that matter rises from consciousness (and not viveversa), is this assumption stated and confirmed by subtle experiences that can occur practicing the two stages or by inferential reasoning?

Thank you in advance :smile:
Matter don't arise from consciousness, appearances do.

/magnus
where does the matter arise from according to that view?
Malcolm
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Re: Validation statement in Vajrayana

Post by Malcolm »

heart wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:44 pm
Vajrasambhava wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:24 pm Hi,
The models which stabilish how phenomena rise in Tantra teachings are directly experienced by practicians/masters or are merely philosofical assertions?
i.e. It is said in Tantras that matter rises from consciousness (and not viveversa), is this assumption stated and confirmed by subtle experiences that can occur practicing the two stages or by inferential reasoning?

Thank you in advance :smile:
Matter don't arise from consciousness, appearances do.

/magnus
Huh? Not according to Vasubandhu.
Vajrasambhava
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Re: Validation statement in Vajrayana

Post by Vajrasambhava »

rai wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 9:38 pm
heart wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:44 pm
Vajrasambhava wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:24 pm Hi,
The models which stabilish how phenomena rise in Tantra teachings are directly experienced by practicians/masters or are merely philosofical assertions?
i.e. It is said in Tantras that matter rises from consciousness (and not viveversa), is this assumption stated and confirmed by subtle experiences that can occur practicing the two stages or by inferential reasoning?

Thank you in advance :smile:
Matter don't arise from consciousness, appearances do.

/magnus
where does the matter arise from according to that view?
From karmic winds (le kyi lung)
Vajrasambhava
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Re: Validation statement in Vajrayana

Post by Vajrasambhava »

heart wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 7:53 pm
Vajrasambhava wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 7:14 pm Ok, and this is validated in tantras in which way? Directly experienced or by inferential reasoning?

Anyway, I always thought that matter comes from mind. If it was not, there would not be past lives, future lives and so on
The view is validated both by reasoning and by practice of meditation.

/magnus
Thank you, may you can help me understand... is it not contradictory to call in cause both reasoning and direct perception to stabilsh validity for a subject?
Malcolm
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Re: Validation statement in Vajrayana

Post by Malcolm »

Vajrasambhava wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 10:22 pm
rai wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 9:38 pm
heart wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:44 pm

Matter don't arise from consciousness, appearances do.

/magnus
where does the matter arise from according to that view?
From karmic winds (le kyi lung)
Vayu is already a kind of matter.
Vajrasambhava
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Re: Validation statement in Vajrayana

Post by Vajrasambhava »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 11:43 pm
Vajrasambhava wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 10:22 pm
rai wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 9:38 pm

where does the matter arise from according to that view?
From karmic winds (le kyi lung)
Vayu is already a kind of matter.
Yes, that's true
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heart
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Re: Validation statement in Vajrayana

Post by heart »

rai wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 9:38 pm
heart wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:44 pm
Vajrasambhava wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:24 pm Hi,
The models which stabilish how phenomena rise in Tantra teachings are directly experienced by practicians/masters or are merely philosofical assertions?
i.e. It is said in Tantras that matter rises from consciousness (and not viveversa), is this assumption stated and confirmed by subtle experiences that can occur practicing the two stages or by inferential reasoning?

Thank you in advance :smile:
Matter don't arise from consciousness, appearances do.

/magnus
where does the matter arise from according to that view?
As I understand it, since it is utterly empty it doesn't arise.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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heart
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Re: Validation statement in Vajrayana

Post by heart »

Vajrasambhava wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 11:35 pm
heart wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 7:53 pm
Vajrasambhava wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 7:14 pm Ok, and this is validated in tantras in which way? Directly experienced or by inferential reasoning?

Anyway, I always thought that matter comes from mind. If it was not, there would not be past lives, future lives and so on
The view is validated both by reasoning and by practice of meditation.

/magnus
Thank you, may you can help me understand... is it not contradictory to call in cause both reasoning and direct perception to stabilsh validity for a subject?
I am not a scholar but it makes sense that you can both understand and directly experience.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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heart
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Re: Validation statement in Vajrayana

Post by heart »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 9:47 pm
heart wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:44 pm
Vajrasambhava wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:24 pm Hi,
The models which stabilish how phenomena rise in Tantra teachings are directly experienced by practicians/masters or are merely philosofical assertions?
i.e. It is said in Tantras that matter rises from consciousness (and not viveversa), is this assumption stated and confirmed by subtle experiences that can occur practicing the two stages or by inferential reasoning?

Thank you in advance :smile:
Matter don't arise from consciousness, appearances do.

/magnus
Huh? Not according to Vasubandhu.
Your help on clarifying this issue about matter and mind would be appreciated Malcolm.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Vajrasambhava
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Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:24 pm

Re: Validation statement in Vajrayana

Post by Vajrasambhava »

heart wrote: Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:55 am
Vajrasambhava wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 11:35 pm
heart wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 7:53 pm

The view is validated both by reasoning and by practice of meditation.

/magnus
Thank you, may you can help me understand... is it not contradictory to call in cause both reasoning and direct perception to stabilsh validity for a subject?
I am not a scholar but it makes sense that you can both understand and directly experience.

/magnus
Well, seems legit. :thanks:
Vajrasambhava
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Re: Validation statement in Vajrayana

Post by Vajrasambhava »

Now, taking in example how matter comes from mind (or even if it was not (as wrongly asserted))... Is this (case) validated through direct perception, inferential reasoning/philosophical speculation or both these methods?
Vajrasambhava
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Re: Validation statement in Vajrayana

Post by Vajrasambhava »

Vajrasambhava wrote: Mon Jul 12, 2021 12:22 pm Now, taking in example how matter comes from mind (or even if it was not (as wrongly asserted))... Is this (case) validated through direct perception, inferential reasoning/philosophical speculation or both these methods?
Can anybody please, help me understand this?
Danny
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Re: Validation statement in Vajrayana

Post by Danny »

Vajrasambhava wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:35 pm
Vajrasambhava wrote: Mon Jul 12, 2021 12:22 pm Now, taking in example how matter comes from mind (or even if it was not (as wrongly asserted))... Is this (case) validated through direct perception, inferential reasoning/philosophical speculation or both these methods?
Can anybody please, help me understand this?
Are you asking how one ascertains the path of seeing as valid? I think that’s what your asking.
Vajrasambhava
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Re: Validation statement in Vajrayana

Post by Vajrasambhava »

Danny wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:02 pm
Vajrasambhava wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:35 pm
Vajrasambhava wrote: Mon Jul 12, 2021 12:22 pm Now, taking in example how matter comes from mind (or even if it was not (as wrongly asserted))... Is this (case) validated through direct perception, inferential reasoning/philosophical speculation or both these methods?
Can anybody please, help me understand this?
Are you asking how one ascertains the path of seeing as valid? I think that’s what your asking.
Yes, more or less. Precisely, i'm asking if in Vajrayana we validate things as reincarnation, the existence of "subtle beings" etc. by merely suppose them or experience them
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FiveSkandhas
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Re: Validation statement in Vajrayana

Post by FiveSkandhas »

Isn't matter just a result of patticca-samuppada ("conditioned co-production")? Just another phenomenon that arises from good old causes n' conditions and passes away when they are no longer aligned to produce the matter in question?
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
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Re: Validation statement in Vajrayana

Post by Ayu »

Vajrasambhava wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:40 pm
Danny wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:02 pm
Vajrasambhava wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:35 pm

Can anybody please, help me understand this?
Are you asking how one ascertains the path of seeing as valid? I think that’s what your asking.
Yes, more or less. Precisely, i'm asking if in Vajrayana we validate things as reincarnation, the existence of "subtle beings" etc. by merely suppose them or experience them
I guess that 'suppose them' or 'experience them' turns out to be the same, if you manage to dig deeper.
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