Validation statement in Vajrayana
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Validation statement in Vajrayana
Hi,
The models which stabilish how phenomena rise in Tantra teachings are directly experienced by practicians/masters or are merely philosofical assertions?
i.e. It is said in Tantras that matter rises from consciousness (and not viveversa), is this assumption stated and confirmed by subtle experiences that can occur practicing the two stages or by inferential reasoning?
Thank you in advance
The models which stabilish how phenomena rise in Tantra teachings are directly experienced by practicians/masters or are merely philosofical assertions?
i.e. It is said in Tantras that matter rises from consciousness (and not viveversa), is this assumption stated and confirmed by subtle experiences that can occur practicing the two stages or by inferential reasoning?
Thank you in advance
Re: Validation statement in Vajrayana
Matter don't arise from consciousness, appearances do.Vajrasambhava wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:24 pm Hi,
The models which stabilish how phenomena rise in Tantra teachings are directly experienced by practicians/masters or are merely philosofical assertions?
i.e. It is said in Tantras that matter rises from consciousness (and not viveversa), is this assumption stated and confirmed by subtle experiences that can occur practicing the two stages or by inferential reasoning?
Thank you in advance
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Validation statement in Vajrayana
Ok, and this is validated in tantras in which way? Directly experienced or by inferential reasoning?
Anyway, I always thought that matter comes from mind. If it was not, there would not be past lives, future lives and so on
Anyway, I always thought that matter comes from mind. If it was not, there would not be past lives, future lives and so on
Re: Validation statement in Vajrayana
The view is validated both by reasoning and by practice of meditation.Vajrasambhava wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 7:14 pm Ok, and this is validated in tantras in which way? Directly experienced or by inferential reasoning?
Anyway, I always thought that matter comes from mind. If it was not, there would not be past lives, future lives and so on
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: Validation statement in Vajrayana
where does the matter arise from according to that view?heart wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:44 pmMatter don't arise from consciousness, appearances do.Vajrasambhava wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:24 pm Hi,
The models which stabilish how phenomena rise in Tantra teachings are directly experienced by practicians/masters or are merely philosofical assertions?
i.e. It is said in Tantras that matter rises from consciousness (and not viveversa), is this assumption stated and confirmed by subtle experiences that can occur practicing the two stages or by inferential reasoning?
Thank you in advance
/magnus
Re: Validation statement in Vajrayana
Huh? Not according to Vasubandhu.heart wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:44 pmMatter don't arise from consciousness, appearances do.Vajrasambhava wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:24 pm Hi,
The models which stabilish how phenomena rise in Tantra teachings are directly experienced by practicians/masters or are merely philosofical assertions?
i.e. It is said in Tantras that matter rises from consciousness (and not viveversa), is this assumption stated and confirmed by subtle experiences that can occur practicing the two stages or by inferential reasoning?
Thank you in advance
/magnus
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Re: Validation statement in Vajrayana
From karmic winds (le kyi lung)rai wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 9:38 pmwhere does the matter arise from according to that view?heart wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:44 pmMatter don't arise from consciousness, appearances do.Vajrasambhava wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:24 pm Hi,
The models which stabilish how phenomena rise in Tantra teachings are directly experienced by practicians/masters or are merely philosofical assertions?
i.e. It is said in Tantras that matter rises from consciousness (and not viveversa), is this assumption stated and confirmed by subtle experiences that can occur practicing the two stages or by inferential reasoning?
Thank you in advance
/magnus
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Re: Validation statement in Vajrayana
Thank you, may you can help me understand... is it not contradictory to call in cause both reasoning and direct perception to stabilsh validity for a subject?heart wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 7:53 pmThe view is validated both by reasoning and by practice of meditation.Vajrasambhava wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 7:14 pm Ok, and this is validated in tantras in which way? Directly experienced or by inferential reasoning?
Anyway, I always thought that matter comes from mind. If it was not, there would not be past lives, future lives and so on
/magnus
Re: Validation statement in Vajrayana
Vayu is already a kind of matter.
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Re: Validation statement in Vajrayana
As I understand it, since it is utterly empty it doesn't arise.rai wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 9:38 pmwhere does the matter arise from according to that view?heart wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:44 pmMatter don't arise from consciousness, appearances do.Vajrasambhava wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:24 pm Hi,
The models which stabilish how phenomena rise in Tantra teachings are directly experienced by practicians/masters or are merely philosofical assertions?
i.e. It is said in Tantras that matter rises from consciousness (and not viveversa), is this assumption stated and confirmed by subtle experiences that can occur practicing the two stages or by inferential reasoning?
Thank you in advance
/magnus
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: Validation statement in Vajrayana
I am not a scholar but it makes sense that you can both understand and directly experience.Vajrasambhava wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 11:35 pmThank you, may you can help me understand... is it not contradictory to call in cause both reasoning and direct perception to stabilsh validity for a subject?heart wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 7:53 pmThe view is validated both by reasoning and by practice of meditation.Vajrasambhava wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 7:14 pm Ok, and this is validated in tantras in which way? Directly experienced or by inferential reasoning?
Anyway, I always thought that matter comes from mind. If it was not, there would not be past lives, future lives and so on
/magnus
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: Validation statement in Vajrayana
Your help on clarifying this issue about matter and mind would be appreciated Malcolm.Malcolm wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 9:47 pmHuh? Not according to Vasubandhu.heart wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:44 pmMatter don't arise from consciousness, appearances do.Vajrasambhava wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:24 pm Hi,
The models which stabilish how phenomena rise in Tantra teachings are directly experienced by practicians/masters or are merely philosofical assertions?
i.e. It is said in Tantras that matter rises from consciousness (and not viveversa), is this assumption stated and confirmed by subtle experiences that can occur practicing the two stages or by inferential reasoning?
Thank you in advance
/magnus
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Validation statement in Vajrayana
Well, seems legit.heart wrote: ↑Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:55 amI am not a scholar but it makes sense that you can both understand and directly experience.Vajrasambhava wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 11:35 pmThank you, may you can help me understand... is it not contradictory to call in cause both reasoning and direct perception to stabilsh validity for a subject?
/magnus
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Re: Validation statement in Vajrayana
Now, taking in example how matter comes from mind (or even if it was not (as wrongly asserted))... Is this (case) validated through direct perception, inferential reasoning/philosophical speculation or both these methods?
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Re: Validation statement in Vajrayana
Can anybody please, help me understand this?Vajrasambhava wrote: ↑Mon Jul 12, 2021 12:22 pm Now, taking in example how matter comes from mind (or even if it was not (as wrongly asserted))... Is this (case) validated through direct perception, inferential reasoning/philosophical speculation or both these methods?
Re: Validation statement in Vajrayana
Are you asking how one ascertains the path of seeing as valid? I think that’s what your asking.Vajrasambhava wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:35 pmCan anybody please, help me understand this?Vajrasambhava wrote: ↑Mon Jul 12, 2021 12:22 pm Now, taking in example how matter comes from mind (or even if it was not (as wrongly asserted))... Is this (case) validated through direct perception, inferential reasoning/philosophical speculation or both these methods?
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Re: Validation statement in Vajrayana
Yes, more or less. Precisely, i'm asking if in Vajrayana we validate things as reincarnation, the existence of "subtle beings" etc. by merely suppose them or experience themDanny wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:02 pmAre you asking how one ascertains the path of seeing as valid? I think that’s what your asking.Vajrasambhava wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:35 pmCan anybody please, help me understand this?Vajrasambhava wrote: ↑Mon Jul 12, 2021 12:22 pm Now, taking in example how matter comes from mind (or even if it was not (as wrongly asserted))... Is this (case) validated through direct perception, inferential reasoning/philosophical speculation or both these methods?
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Re: Validation statement in Vajrayana
Isn't matter just a result of patticca-samuppada ("conditioned co-production")? Just another phenomenon that arises from good old causes n' conditions and passes away when they are no longer aligned to produce the matter in question?
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi
"Just be kind." -Atisha
"Just be kind." -Atisha
Re: Validation statement in Vajrayana
I guess that 'suppose them' or 'experience them' turns out to be the same, if you manage to dig deeper.Vajrasambhava wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:40 pmYes, more or less. Precisely, i'm asking if in Vajrayana we validate things as reincarnation, the existence of "subtle beings" etc. by merely suppose them or experience them