Validation statement in Vajrayana

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Vajrasambhava
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Re: Validation statement in Vajrayana

Post by Vajrasambhava »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:44 pm Isn't matter just a result of patticca-samuppada ("conditioned co-production")?
Yes, as all relative phenomena.
FiveSkandhas wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:44 pm Just another phenomenon that arises from good old causes n' conditions and passes away when they are no longer aligned to produce the matter in question?
Sorry, I don't understand the sense of this phrase
Norwegian
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Re: Validation statement in Vajrayana

Post by Norwegian »

Vajrasambhava wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:40 pm
Danny wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:02 pm
Vajrasambhava wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:35 pm

Can anybody please, help me understand this?
Are you asking how one ascertains the path of seeing as valid? I think that’s what your asking.
Yes, more or less. Precisely, i'm asking if in Vajrayana we validate things as reincarnation, the existence of "subtle beings" etc. by merely suppose them or experience them
If you do not have the realization of having attained the path of seeing, or even anything such as mundane siddhis and abilities, then you cannot rely on personal experience, you will have to rely on a person of authority, someone who knows, and who better for this than the Buddha?
Malcolm
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Re: Validation statement in Vajrayana

Post by Malcolm »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:44 pm Isn't matter just a result of patticca-samuppada ("conditioned co-production")? Just another phenomenon that arises from good old causes n' conditions and passes away when they are no longer aligned to produce the matter in question?
According to Abhidharma, yes, the universe arises by virtue of dependent origination, as the result of the dominant condition, from the collective actions of all sentient beings.
Vajrasambhava
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Re: Validation statement in Vajrayana

Post by Vajrasambhava »

Ayu wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 4:00 pm
Vajrasambhava wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:40 pm
Danny wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:02 pm

Are you asking how one ascertains the path of seeing as valid? I think that’s what your asking.
Yes, more or less. Precisely, i'm asking if in Vajrayana we validate things as reincarnation, the existence of "subtle beings" etc. by merely suppose them or experience them
I guess that 'suppose them' or 'experience them' turns out to be the same, if you manage to dig deeper.
Well, the former can be based even abstractly, without proof or direct perception, just through phylosophical speculation. The latter obviously requires direct perception
Vajrasambhava
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Re: Validation statement in Vajrayana

Post by Vajrasambhava »

Norwegian wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 4:10 pm
Vajrasambhava wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:40 pm
Danny wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:02 pm

Are you asking how one ascertains the path of seeing as valid? I think that’s what your asking.
Yes, more or less. Precisely, i'm asking if in Vajrayana we validate things as reincarnation, the existence of "subtle beings" etc. by merely suppose them or experience them
If you do not have the realization of having attained the path of seeing, or even anything such as mundane siddhis and abilities, then you cannot rely on personal experience, you will have to rely on a person of authority, someone who knows, and who better for this than the Buddha?
So are you telling me that until I have not such realization I have to trust Vajrayana faithfully?
Danny
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Re: Validation statement in Vajrayana

Post by Danny »

Confidence would be based upon the 16 moments,
The path of seeing, it’s framed as acceptance,
Obviously there’s more to it than that.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Validation statement in Vajrayana

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

What’s matter?
Matter is energy.
If you look closely enough, just atoms, and in fact, it’s mostly empty space between atoms.
What we experience is matter as solids, liquids, and gasses, which they truly, objectively are…
…at the level we experience them,
and that level is due to karma, and in that sense also, matter is a projection of the mind.
For example, a honeybee sees colors in flowers on the ultraviolet spectrum. Dogs “see” with their noses. Bats use sonar. Each type of being experiences, and creates the type of interpretation of the same “matter” according to their karmic condition.
So, it is accurate to say that the material world is a projection of the mind, if for no other reason than the simple fact that visible beings cannot perceive the invisible levels of matter, as atoms.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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FiveSkandhas
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Re: Validation statement in Vajrayana

Post by FiveSkandhas »

Vajrasambhava wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 4:16 pm
So are you telling me that until I have not such realization I have to trust Vajrayana faithfully?
We trust many things in life before we experience them.

Before a math student studies calculus, she has no direct realization of the truth of that discipline, but most if not all pre-calculus students trust that calculus equations espoused by experts in that field are valid mathematics. They trust that they too will eventually understand calculus from direct experience if they continue to pursue the standard course of mathematical study. Why? Because of the people they trust. Because an age-old tradition agrees with itself and is internally consistent. Because as students they have had some experience with progress through lower mathematics and have no reason to doubt the path through higher mathematics will be valid. And so on.
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
Vajrasambhava
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Re: Validation statement in Vajrayana

Post by Vajrasambhava »

Thanks for your answers, it helps me understand...

I think it's very difficult approaching Vajrayana without leaving behind usual westerners conceptual models. It's not easy at all to trust in someone (Gurus or masters) at the beginning of dharma path.
Expecially for people like me, who grew up in materialistic-scientific context. Abandoning such inquiry criteria to give room for trust requires time.
Danny
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Re: Validation statement in Vajrayana

Post by Danny »

Vajrasambhava wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:20 pm Thanks for your answers, it helps me understand...

I think it's very difficult approaching Vajrayana without leaving behind usual westerners conceptual models. It's not easy at all to trust in someone (Gurus or masters) at the beginning of dharma path.
Expecially for people like me, who grew up in materialistic-scientific context. Abandoning such inquiry criteria to give room for trust requires time.
Faith and science don’t conflict.
I have a science background, so I have that natural curiosity, that “I need to know” how this world works attitude.
Personally I’ve never seen an electron, or DNA double helix, or a covid virus protein spike. Or a guru turn into a body of light.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Validation statement in Vajrayana

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Or a guru turn into a body of light.
Once H.H. Karmapa gets his hat back (if ever) I suggest you buy a ticket to a Vajra Crown ceremony. And keep your eyes open. It’s “liberation through seeing”.

What you see will be subjective. Different people see different things, and the same person won’t see the same thing every time. You might only see a man trying to keep a very awkward and I’ll-fitting headpiece on his head while he fingers a mala and mumbles a mantra. For instance I don’t think a camera would capture anything out of the ordinary. I have questions about seeing it on the internet. Go in person and try to allow yourself to see whatever might appear to you—including him turning into rays of light.

Just sayin’
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Danny
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Re: Validation statement in Vajrayana

Post by Danny »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:30 pm
Or a guru turn into a body of light.
Once H.H. Karmapa gets his hat back (if ever) I suggest you buy a ticket to a Vajra Crown ceremony. And keep your eyes open. It’s “liberation through seeing”.

What you see will be subjective. Different people see different things, and the same person won’t see the same thing every time. You might only see a man trying to keep a very awkward and I’ll-fitting headpiece on his head while he fingers a mala and mumbles a mantra. For instance I don’t think a camera would capture anything out of the ordinary. I have questions about seeing it on the internet. Go in person and try to allow yourself to see whatever might appear to you—including him turning into rays of light.

Just sayin’
lol, I saw those sketchy photos in the 90’s
Your talking illusory body, not rainbow. Which btw is nothing like the art work.

Just saying.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Validation statement in Vajrayana

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Danny wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:02 pm lol, I saw those sketchy photos in the 90’s
Your talking illusory body, not rainbow. Which btw is nothing like the art work.

Just saying.
Like I said, go in person. See for yourself (when and if you can). Maybe you’ll see nothing, but maybe you will. It’s worth the price of the ticket to find out.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Danny
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Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:43 pm

Re: Validation statement in Vajrayana

Post by Danny »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:25 pm
Danny wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:02 pm lol, I saw those sketchy photos in the 90’s
Your talking illusory body, not rainbow. Which btw is nothing like the art work.

Just saying.
Like I said, go in person. See for yourself (when and if you can). Maybe you’ll see nothing, but maybe you will. It’s worth the price of the ticket to find out.
Sure.
We’re vajra family,
I won’t argue with you.
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