Meditative Attainment -> The Dark State

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Tata1
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Re: Meditative Attainment -> The Dark State

Post by Tata1 »

Vikramashila wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 10:26 am Dear Dharma Friends,

In Tibetan buddhism, do we discuss about a meditative attainment of a "dark state" of a mind after the clear light attainment ?

First through the genuine spiritual practise we try to attain mental absorptions or so called Jhanas, and later the clear light of the mind at the final stage (developing both concentration and insight) in both Mahamudra and Dzogchen traditions. This is one of the most subtle levels of our mind where the consciousness (Vinnana) disappears in the meditator. Is there another "dark" or "black-out" state after this in which, the conceptual appearances totally disappear ? In traditional Theravada school, this latter state is not discussed.....

Thanks in advance
Vikram
You dont try to attain jhanas in mahamudra and dzogchen
zerwe
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Re: Meditative Attainment -> The Dark State

Post by zerwe »

Vikramashila wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 10:26 am Dear Dharma Friends,

In Tibetan buddhism, do we discuss about a meditative attainment of a "dark state" of a mind after the clear light attainment ?

First through the genuine spiritual practise we try to attain mental absorptions or so called Jhanas, and later the clear light of the mind at the final stage (developing both concentration and insight) in both Mahamudra and Dzogchen traditions. This is one of the most subtle levels of our mind where the consciousness (Vinnana) disappears in the meditator. Is there another "dark" or "black-out" state after this in which, the conceptual appearances totally disappear ? In traditional Theravada school, this latter state is not discussed.....

Thanks in advance
Vikram
In the manner of how you describe...
A state where conceptual appearances disappear? Yes
A "dark" or black out state? No

Shaun :namaste:
Inedible
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Re: Meditative Attainment -> The Dark State

Post by Inedible »

You are a long way away from having to worry about it. First, you have the regular preliminaries, then Ngöndro. Then the experiences you are describing occur during Generation Stage practice. Possibly not until Completion Stage. You'll need a Highest Yoga Tantra initiation just to begin the Ngöndro.
stoneinfocus
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Re: Meditative Attainment -> The Dark State

Post by stoneinfocus »

Inedible wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 6:04 am You'll need a Highest Yoga Tantra initiation just to begin the Ngöndro.
This is highly dependent on teacher and lineage. Many will let you start ngöndro with just a lung.
Tata1
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Re: Meditative Attainment -> The Dark State

Post by Tata1 »

stoneinfocus wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 7:21 pm
Inedible wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 6:04 am You'll need a Highest Yoga Tantra initiation just to begin the Ngöndro.
This is highly dependent on teacher and lineage. Many will let you start ngöndro with just a lung.
And many dont require ngondro or the two stages to practice mahamudra and dzogchen.
Inedible
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Re: Meditative Attainment -> The Dark State

Post by Inedible »

Tata1 wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 10:43 pm And many dont require ngondro or the two stages to practice mahamudra and dzogchen.
Where can I get a teacher like that to be my Lama? :)

So far I have met a few teachers. One was even an Abbot in a Tibetan monastery in India before coming to America. All of them have said that they have no knowledge, no realization, no attainment. Nothing you can't get from a book. And they all told me I need a Highest Yoga Tantra empowerment. The thing is, I don't think they would be in authorized teaching positions if they were telling me the truth about their lack of realization and attainment. So they were just lying to me. It seems to be traditional and not something to take personally, but I was too old for Santa Clause type stories.
Tata1
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Re: Meditative Attainment -> The Dark State

Post by Tata1 »

Inedible wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 12:42 am
Tata1 wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 10:43 pm And many dont require ngondro or the two stages to practice mahamudra and dzogchen.
Where can I get a teacher like that to be my Lama? :)

So far I have met a few teachers. One was even an Abbot in a Tibetan monastery in India before coming to America. All of them have said that they have no knowledge, no realization, no attainment. Nothing you can't get from a book. And they all told me I need a Highest Yoga Tantra empowerment. The thing is, I don't think they would be in authorized teaching positions if they were telling me the truth about their lack of realization and attainment. So they were just lying to me. It seems to be traditional and not something to take personally, but I was too old for Santa Clause type stories.
Yo do need empowerment for practicing mahamudra and dzogchen. But not every teacher asks for ngondro and so forth. Its funny, i never found a teacher who told me I needed ngondro and the two stages for dzogchen practice (although i did/do do them)
Giovanni
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Re: Meditative Attainment -> The Dark State

Post by Giovanni »

Generally speaking we don’t need Ngondro or two stages or Lam Rim or any other prelim to practice Dzogchen.
However if you have taken Refuge with a bone fide teacher who says that you personally need such prelims then you should take notice of her/his instruction.
Inedible
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Re: Meditative Attainment -> The Dark State

Post by Inedible »

The Clear Light can arise in meditation and it can be found in sleep. Working with it is to prepare to recognize it and merge with it after death. There is a dark state preceding it as the elements dissolve and then you go through white, red, and black stages. There are Generation Stage practices that go through the process as practice. You can read about it in Lama Yeshe's book "The Bliss of Inner Fire". I hope I'm remembering that correctly. It has been a while since I read that book. What I was trying to say is that all this is several years down the road and not something to worry about doing any time soon. There is a lot of work to do to get to the point of being ready for it.
fckw
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Re: Meditative Attainment -> The Dark State

Post by fckw »

Inedible wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 10:38 am What I was trying to say is that all this is several years down the road and not something to worry about doing any time soon. There is a lot of work to do to get to the point of being ready for it.
That's not correct. Nearly all texts stress the point that there exist highest capacity students who realize very advanced teachings more or less upon hearing, and/or with only little practice in very short time. If these students did not exist, the texts would not have mentioned them. I am mentioning this because I have seen official teachers estimating a student's already made progress very wrongly and thus giving unsuitable advice. And there is a quite silly game going on in Buddhist sanghas to be expected to hide one's meditative progress out of fake humility, which results in some more advanced students staying blocked for long periods because they are not receiving the right/suitable instructions they'd need to make further progress.
Inedible
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Re: Meditative Attainment -> The Dark State

Post by Inedible »

It would have been best for me to have been placed in the care of a good teacher at 6 or 7 years old. I was at the peak of my abilities back then. I have been trying ever since to get back to that level.
Natan
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Re: Meditative Attainment -> The Dark State

Post by Natan »

Vikramashila wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 10:26 am Dear Dharma Friends,

In Tibetan buddhism, do we discuss about a meditative attainment of a "dark state" of a mind after the clear light attainment ?

First through the genuine spiritual practise we try to attain mental absorptions or so called Jhanas, and later the clear light of the mind at the final stage (developing both concentration and insight) in both Mahamudra and Dzogchen traditions. This is one of the most subtle levels of our mind where the consciousness (Vinnana) disappears in the meditator. Is there another "dark" or "black-out" state after this in which, the conceptual appearances totally disappear ? In traditional Theravada school, this latter state is not discussed.....

Thanks in advance
Vikram
No jhana, but the Geluk completion stage teachings go into clear light experience described in a similar manner. You would need a Gelukpa lama.
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