Losing faith in enlightenment

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Malcolm
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Re: Losing faith in enlightenment

Post by Malcolm »

Mirror wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 5:16 pm
But this topic is very difficult, because we can't really verify who is a reincarnation of whom and who is enlightened.
Correct, this is beyond the ken of ordinary people; and so therefore, one has to examine the qualities of the teacher still, and not rely on names.
Bristollad
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Re: Losing faith in enlightenment

Post by Bristollad »

Malcolm wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 7:11 pm
Mirror wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 5:16 pm
But this topic is very difficult, because we can't really verify who is a reincarnation of whom and who is enlightened.
Correct, this is beyond the ken of ordinary people; and so therefore, one has to examine the qualities of the teacher still, and not rely on names.
One Geshe I spoke to told how his abbot waited until he saw the Dalai Lama debating at his geshe examination before accepting him as the correctly chosen successor to the 13th Dalai Lama. The Geshe explained that it wasn't his skill at debating that convinced the abbot, but his behaviour and manner during the debate.

I was also told a story of the old Zong Rinpoche who was quite disapproving of the tulku system. He supposedly said that if, after he died, a child appeared claiming to be him, his attendant should give him a Dharma text to study, stuff his mouth full of dirt and send him away. They didn't.
The antidote—to be free from the suffering of samsara—you need to be free from delusion and karma; you need to be free from ignorance, the root of samsara. So you need to meditate on emptiness. That is what you need. Lama Zopa Rinpoche
Mirror
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Re: Losing faith in enlightenment

Post by Mirror »

Bristollad wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 7:33 pm One Geshe I spoke to told how his abbot waited until he saw the Dalai Lama debating at his geshe examination before accepting him as the correctly chosen successor to the 13th Dalai Lama. The Geshe explained that it wasn't his skill at debating that convinced the abbot, but his behaviour and manner during the debate.

I was also told a story of the old Zong Rinpoche who was quite disapproving of the tulku system. He supposedly said that if, after he died, a child appeared claiming to be him, his attendant should give him a Dharma text to study, stuff his mouth full of dirt and send him away. They didn't.
:good:
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Remember that you die
fckw
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Re: Losing faith in enlightenment

Post by fckw »

Mirror wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 2:36 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 2:11 pm
Mirror wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 12:43 am There are so many tibetan buddhist masters, who have been reincarnated for umpteenth time and although it's said that they have been enlightened in their previous lives, they weren't born enlightened and most of their previous attainments have been lost. Even so they have been learning and practising more swiftly and easily in their present lives, without being reborn in a place where dharma is accessible, their accomplishments are gone or lessened at least.
Not all tulkus are really reincarnations of awakened people. Most are just recognized for the purposes of maintaining lineages.
Is there a possibility of being reborn into more persons than just one?
Apparently yes, however the definition of "reborn" might be a bit tricky.
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Supramundane
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Re: Losing faith in enlightenment

Post by Supramundane »

Mirror wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 12:43 am What is the point of meditating, when our attainments disappear after death?

There are so many tibetan buddhist masters, who have been reincarnated for umpteenth time and although it's said that they have been enlightened in their previous lives, they weren't born enlightened and most of their previous attainments have been lost. Even so they have been learning and practising more swiftly and easily in their present lives, without being reborn in a place where dharma is accessible, their accomplishments are gone or lessened at least.

I'm just starting to lose my motivation for meditating, when I don't see a proof that energy and time spent in meditation will not be lost. On the other hand it's logical, how can we think that one lifetime spent in retreats (like Milarepa did) will purify our delusions we were cultivating for so many lifetimes.

I'm lost, please help. I'll be very glad for any answers. Thank you very much :heart:
I think you are hitting up on something fundamental. It is time for you to decide what you believe in and confront your doubts. The Buddha fought against the concept of pure materialism, whereby life ends at death, and we are just a body that must die. Those who believe that this is the case view life as the pursuit of more and more intense sensory pleasures. Hedonism and nihilism will be the ultimate result.

However, if you look into yourself during meditation, and you feel there is something more, then you should follow those discoveries and strive to know that 'something more'.

Perhaps this is a positive development for you, as you are at a crossroads in your spiritual life, and the decision you make will determine your behavior, consciously and unconsciously, going forward.

Bodhicitta is the concept you should study: if you cultivate Bodhicitta, as set out in the Diamond Sutra, this will help you abandon materialism, cultivate non-grasping and guide all sentient beings to enlightenment.

I wish you lots of luck and, of course, you know we are all here to support you and give you guidance.
But ultimately, you must decide on your own.
Metta
SM
SilenceMonkey
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Re: Losing faith in enlightenment

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Well, you don’t have to be reborn as a human. :pig:
dharmafootsteps
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Re: Losing faith in enlightenment

Post by dharmafootsteps »

Malcolm wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 4:30 pm
Mirror wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 2:36 pm
Is there a possibility of being reborn into more persons than just one?
Not really. When one sees multiple tulkus of one person, its usually because different lineage heads of different monasteries recognize a tulku of that person. It is not an organized institution with the central clearing house of incarnations. It is pretty much a free for all, and competition among the backers of competing tulkus can be quite fierce and even descent into all out war, like in the present day Karmapa affair.

Emanations of high level bodhisattvas don't need to recognized and enthroned. The days of tulkus are numbered.
This is interesting, usually one hears this justified by it being possible for buddhas/high level bodhisattvas to have “multiple emanations”. Is this a misunderstanding?
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Aemilius
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Re: Losing faith in enlightenment

Post by Aemilius »

dharmafootsteps wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 8:31 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 4:30 pm
Mirror wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 2:36 pm
Is there a possibility of being reborn into more persons than just one?
Not really. When one sees multiple tulkus of one person, its usually because different lineage heads of different monasteries recognize a tulku of that person. It is not an organized institution with the central clearing house of incarnations. It is pretty much a free for all, and competition among the backers of competing tulkus can be quite fierce and even descent into all out war, like in the present day Karmapa affair.

Emanations of high level bodhisattvas don't need to recognized and enthroned. The days of tulkus are numbered.
This is interesting, usually one hears this justified by it being possible for buddhas/high level bodhisattvas to have “multiple emanations”. Is this a misunderstanding?
Different kinds of emanations are mentioned already in India in Mahayana sutras and commentarial literature, for example in Lankavatara sutra, and Mahayanasutra-alamkara of Maitreya/Asanga. The emanations seem to be mulitiple, and very much so. But the system of official recognition of bodhisattva emanations did not develop in China, Korea, Japan, etc.. Some persons have claimed to be emanations of Boddhisattvas in Chinese and Japanese buddhism, like Nichiren Shonin. In some cases the followers have said this.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Losing faith in enlightenment

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

There is an academic publication that was out in the 1980s, Testimonies of Tibetan Tulkus (see Amazon link, below) and in one chapter an instance is mentioned where it had been assumed that the old lama had passed away up in the mountains, and a search was done for his next incarnation, and at the time of the enthronement of the child, the old lama suddenly showed up, having made his way back down from the mountains, he made it back to the village, still very much alive.

One of the things I think the Buddhist teachings make pretty clear is that most of the time, people see what they want to see. The tulku system ‘ain’t exact rocket science’. There is plenty of room where mistakes can happen. And then there are also remarkable examples of co-incidental events which are difficult to dispute.

EMPTIFUL.
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Malcolm
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Re: Losing faith in enlightenment

Post by Malcolm »

dharmafootsteps wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 8:31 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 4:30 pm
Mirror wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 2:36 pm
Is there a possibility of being reborn into more persons than just one?
Not really. When one sees multiple tulkus of one person, its usually because different lineage heads of different monasteries recognize a tulku of that person. It is not an organized institution with the central clearing house of incarnations. It is pretty much a free for all, and competition among the backers of competing tulkus can be quite fierce and even descent into all out war, like in the present day Karmapa affair.

Emanations of high level bodhisattvas don't need to recognized and enthroned. The days of tulkus are numbered.
This is interesting, usually one hears this justified by it being possible for buddhas/high level bodhisattvas to have “multiple emanations”. Is this a misunderstanding?
It’s apologetics.
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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: Losing faith in enlightenment

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 12:17 pm One of the things I think the Buddhist teachings make pretty clear is that most of the time, people see what they want to see. The tulku system ‘ain’t exact rocket science’. There is plenty of room where mistakes can happen. And then there are also remarkable examples of co-incidental events which are difficult to dispute.

Yup. Remind me of ChNN telling a story how he doubted he was a tulku of Adzom Drukpa, but then one day out of clarity of his mind he wrote a text that was exactly the same as one written by Adzom Drukpa. Etc. Emanations exist. Whether they really need to be recognized is a different issue.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

- Arya Sanghata Sutra
muni
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Re: Losing faith in enlightenment

Post by muni »

Enlightened Nature can appear in so many, many ways. Even the Buddha was saying do not seek it in form.

However we need it to be able to be receptive. Would we be receptive and respectful by the appearance of a clochard or a cat?

While it are the qualities to awaken, not form and cloths and famousness.

Sitting on a throne was helpful to look up, up to the light pointing to nature. But now this may be not that useful anymore, it could as well feed our worldy concerns. Some can need a humbly appearing guidance, some other, depends I guess?

Ps Let's not have faith in ideas of losing faith. :namaste:
Malcolm
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Re: Losing faith in enlightenment

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 6:11 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 4:30 pm
Mirror wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 2:36 pm
Is there a possibility of being reborn into more persons than just one?
Not really. When one sees multiple tulkus of one person, its usually because different lineage heads of different monasteries recognize a tulku of that person. It is not an organized institution with the central clearing house of incarnations. It is pretty much a free for all, and competition among the backers of competing tulkus can be quite fierce and even descent into all out war, like in the present day Karmapa affair.

Emanations of high level bodhisattvas don't need to recognized and enthroned. The days of tulkus are numbered.
Bla bla bla. They have mind, body and speech emanations. The lineage is what matters not some interesting innovations from Massachusetts. The teaching is that buddhas can emanate countless ways. If someone is an emanation of so and so depends if their actions resemble so and so. Malcolm mocks this but professes Buddha was a cartoon. It's better to think in pragmatic terms.
I don’t take the human institution of Tibetan Tulkus very seriously, because it is 99.999% politics and money, that’s the pragmatic view of Tibetan Tulkus.

It amounts to blessing little kids like they do statues, hoping they will turn out ok. Some do; most, meh.
WeiHan
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Re: Losing faith in enlightenment

Post by WeiHan »

Mirror wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 12:43 am What is the point of meditating, when our attainments disappear after death?

There are so many tibetan buddhist masters, who have been reincarnated for umpteenth time and although it's said that they have been enlightened in their previous lives, they weren't born enlightened and most of their previous attainments have been lost. Even so they have been learning and practising more swiftly and easily in their present lives, without being reborn in a place where dharma is accessible, their accomplishments are gone or lessened at least.

I'm just starting to lose my motivation for meditating, when I don't see a proof that energy and time spent in meditation will not be lost. On the other hand it's logical, how can we think that one lifetime spent in retreats (like Milarepa did) will purify our delusions we were cultivating for so many lifetimes.

I'm lost, please help. I'll be very glad for any answers. Thank you very much :heart:
Hi,

I am reading certain section of Karma Chakme's mountain Dharma volume 4 which seem may partially address your doubt. that section is about the different levels of attainments and mode of benefiting sentient beings. Very refreshing to know that even rainbow bodies (supreme immortality), there more than 5 types (I didn't really counts how many types are described but many) as oppose to what we usually think (2-3 ) kinds only. And then, he also discussed about some Bodhisattva choosing to take rebirth as human beings again to continue benefiting sentient beings and also the obscurations caused by sperm and ovum which cause them to lose some memory. All in all, not all types of attainments will carry the risk of temporary reversing. I'll recommend that you read that particular section for inspiration. I can cut and paste a few sections if some of you are keen to read.
Inedible
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Re: Losing faith in enlightenment

Post by Inedible »

There have been times when I questioned my faith in Enlightenment. Then I ran into a bigger problem because I couldn't find anywhere better to believe in and work toward.
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