Tibetan Buddhist Chants

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mabw
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Tibetan Buddhist Chants

Post by mabw »

There are videos on Youtube where monks chant in a very guttural voice.
Example.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INIMACWzMsI

Is there a reason for this?

Thank you in advance.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Tibetan Buddhist Chants

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

mabw wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 4:57 pm There are videos on Youtube where monks chant in a very guttural voice.
Example.


Is there a reason for this?

Thank you in advance.
It's throatsinging or overtone signing. You can check out Mongolian, Tuvan, and a few other forms of throatsinging that are similar. If you listen you can hear the overtones produced. It could just be circumstantial, but I have not heard any other Tibetan throatsinging, only the Gyuto Monks. On the wiki it says something like "the style of singing was transmitted by their founder"..for whatever that's worth.

As to whether it has some doctrinal or spiritual reason I have no idea, I'm sure there is some reason somewhere. Even "secular" music in some cultures comes in this form though, strange as it may seem to some ears.

I actually got to do a brief workshop with a Tuvan throatsinger, it's a tough technique, but easier than one might expect to learn. A lot of the instructions I got were centered around "sound like a goat"...but it's less helpful to a city dweller, I just haven't been around that many goats.
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GrapeLover
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Re: Tibetan Buddhist Chants

Post by GrapeLover »

It’s a Gelug style established by Tsongkhapa
Tsongkhapa had two styles of chanting at different times in his life, based on visions he had, in which protectors chanted to him in these ways. The two are called the mountain-cracking voice (ri-bo ral-ba’i skad) and the ocean-rolling voice (chu-gter 'khrog-pa’i skad). Both styles are with an extremely base voice, with the former being a flat monotone and the later undulating and producing overtones. The three main Gelug monasteries (gdan-sa gsum) near Lhasa – Sera (Se-ra dGon-pa), Drepung (‘Bras-spung dGon-pa), and Ganden (dGa’- ldan dGon-pa) – all use the ocean-rolling voice. Up until the time of the Fifteenth Ganden Tripa (dGa’-ldan Khri-pa, Ganden Throne-holder), Panchen Sonam Dragpa (Pan-chen bSod-nams grags-pa) (1478-1554), both Gyume and Gyuto used the mountain-cracking voice. Gyume has continued this style, while Gyuto adapted the ocean-rolling voice through the influence of Panchen Sonam Dragpa.
https://studybuddhism.com/en/advanced-s ... -and-gyuto
Last edited by GrapeLover on Tue May 04, 2021 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tibetan Buddhist Chants

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Are these styles actually commonly practiced in Gelugpa monasteries, etc.? I'm always surprised that I have never heard it outside the Gyuto Monks. This technique AFAIK does take some dedication.

For comparison, here is Tuvan singing in the Kargyraa style which if I remember is the most guttural.
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mabw
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Re: Tibetan Buddhist Chants

Post by mabw »

GrapeLover wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 6:27 pm
Thanks for this.
mabw
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Re: Tibetan Buddhist Chants

Post by mabw »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 6:28 pm

Not related to topic, but since I recognise the guy in the video, thought I'll share this. I absolutely love this performance the band gave. I think it's the full performance from the link you gave.

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Re: Tibetan Buddhist Chants

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Yeah, Huun Huur Tu is amazing.



This is one of the Tuvan performers I have seen. and I think one of these guys was my throatsinger tutor too!

No more OT I promise.
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Passing By
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Re: Tibetan Buddhist Chants

Post by Passing By »

mabw wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 4:57 pm There are videos on Youtube where monks chant in a very guttural voice.
Example.


Is there a reason for this?

Thank you in advance.
It's a Geluk style mainly. My local FPMT lamas from Kopan also use this style every time they perform pujas during Vesak

Although granted, most Tibetan chanting regardless of school have some guttural parts. But the full out throat singing I've only heard from Geluk
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Re: Tibetan Buddhist Chants

Post by Budai »

Johnny mentioned the Gyuto monks. I am personally impressed by their chanting, I feel the depth of Tibetan Buddhism in their voices.

Here is an example of what they sound like, from an album of Sutric Mantras done with someone named Deva Premal who sometimes does a lot of Sutric Buddhist Mantras, however aside from this track most of their beautiful chanting is in the background, of this particular album:



But you can really get the depth of their voices from this track, and it is quite interesting. I think that kind of deep chanting is beautiful.
Last edited by Budai on Thu May 06, 2021 8:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Danny
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Re: Tibetan Buddhist Chants

Post by Danny »

I read years ago so recollection isn’t the best,
But apparently the sound comes from a dream of (tsongkhapa?) of a creature with a bulls head, that spoke with that voice.
Anyway....maybe that’s the story.
It’s a Gelukpa thing, although some Kagyupas and Bonpos chant this way now a days, and different colleges would compete in Monlams, prayer festivals.
Last edited by Danny on Thu May 06, 2021 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Tibetan Buddhist Chants

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

There are two aspects to low, guttural singing.
First, one needs to be very physically relaxed. You simply cannot do this if you are tense.

Second (not surprisingly), one needs to sort of channel one’s energy from ‘way down deep’. This also creates a sort of vibration in the chest (central channel?) which does feel as though it has some special quality to it, it feels very healing in a way.

I think being able to sing this way is also partly a demonstration of one’s ‘meditative control’ you might say. Not in terms of ‘showing-off’, but simply meaning that one must be able to achieve some degree of focus and stable relaxation, which takes time to learn through a lot of meditation practice. So, this method would be most often heard when singing or chanting of certain, you might say, more advanced practices (sadhanas).

The Tibetan guttural singing and the Mongolian higher pitched ‘throat singing’ share the fact that they involve resonance and the achievement of harmonics. In other words, one effectively produces two notes at once. But aside from that, they are different physiologically. It’s really two different techniques. One isn’t merely a variety of the other.

One aspect of the Mongolian technique (actually a combination of various techniques combining placement of the tongue, forcing of the breath, and clenching of the teeth) again, not surprisingly, is that in being louder and more high-pitched, it can be heard from much further away. I suspect that spending much of one’s life outdoors and on a horse, riding over a wide grassy plateau, and wanting to produce a sound that could carry over a greater distance had something to do with its development.
Last edited by PadmaVonSamba on Thu May 06, 2021 11:49 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Danny
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Re: Tibetan Buddhist Chants

Post by Danny »

Up, it’s a way to call your yaks or eagles 🦅, Nordic people’s, have ways of singing to bring in the cows, Alpine peoples yodel, have big horns to blow as well, cows have bells... lol you get the idea.

Next time you pass by a field with horses or cows in the far corner, stand there and sing and see if they don’t come over to see if you got any grub.
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Re: Tibetan Buddhist Chants

Post by jmlee369 »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 6:28 pm Are these styles actually commonly practiced in Gelugpa monasteries, etc.? I'm always surprised that I have never heard it outside the Gyuto Monks. This technique AFAIK does take some dedication.
It is quite common actually, one of my teachers prefers to use this style of chanting for even preliminary prayers before teachings if a good umdze is available, and he himself will chant this way despite being well into his 80s. Generally outside of Gyume and Gyuto, this style is used by the umdze to start and end sections.

Videos of examples from Gyume, Sera Jey, Ganden Jangtse (here umdze uses the ocean rolling voice while the other monks chant in regular voice), Kopan (I believe this is the Gyume style chanting, the mountain cracking voice), Drepung Loseling Institute in Atlanta, some Taiwanese monks who have mastered the style (it's a long, complicated, controversial story)
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