Monk rules...

Forum for discussion of Tibetan Buddhism. Questions specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
Post Reply
User avatar
tellyontellyon
Posts: 332
Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2013 11:38 pm

Monk rules...

Post by tellyontellyon »

Hi,
What is the entire list of rules/precepts that a Tibetan monk takes?

Thank you.
:heart:
"Be melting snow. Wash yourself of yourself."
- Rumi
Bristollad
Posts: 1121
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:39 am

Re: Monk rules...

Post by Bristollad »

See here for an outline of the vinaya.

https://www.dalailama.com/messages/budd ... -tradition

In addition, monastics also follow the rules of monastery/nunnery they are part of, and many will also have bodhisattva vows and tantric vows.
The antidote—to be free from the suffering of samsara—you need to be free from delusion and karma; you need to be free from ignorance, the root of samsara. So you need to meditate on emptiness. That is what you need. Lama Zopa Rinpoche
User avatar
Budai
Posts: 878
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:12 pm
Location: ༀ ∞ Nam Myoho Renge Kyo ∞ ༀ

Re: Monk rules...

Post by Budai »

Bristollad wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:53 pm See here for an outline of the vinaya.

https://www.dalailama.com/messages/budd ... -tradition

In addition, monastics also follow the rules of monastery/nunnery they are part of, and many will also have bodhisattva vows and tantric vows.

What is this referring to?:
Simple downfalls, sixth set of ten: e.g. 1. causing food to be cut off 2. touching fire 3. withdrawing consent, etc.
The ability to withdraw consent from something is one of the important things in life, a necessity to be able to live it, and a human right, so I am not at all sure what is meant here. Translation barrier (?)/ wording misunderstanding?

Though I am sure the vinaya is well meant, and no offense to it, I seem to want to know what this specific line means. If anyone is knowledgable, may they answer. It will help greatly.

Namaste.
User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 139
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 8:08 pm
Location: Amphoe Li, Lamphun

Re: Monk rules...

Post by Dhammanando »

Könchok Chödrak wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 1:01 am Though I am sure the vinaya is well meant, and no offense to it, I seem to want to know what this specific line means. If anyone is knowledgable, may they answer. It will help greatly.
The link doesn't give the content of each training rule in full. It merely states the mnemonic name by which each rule is known. I don't have a copy of the Tibetan prātimoksha, but I would guess the rule referred to would be the Mūlasarvāstivādin parallel to pācittiya 80 in the Pali pātimokkha:
A monk who departs without giving his consent while the Order is deciding on an issue must confess the offense.
Or perhaps pācittiya 79:
A monk who has given his consent for the Order to perform an official act, but then criticizes the act, must confess the offense.
When a sangha is carrying out some formal act (e.g., an ordination) it will only be valid if every monk in the community attends the meeting and gives his consent (chanda). But if a monk can't go in person (e.g., if he's sick) then he can ask another monk whom he trusts to convey his consent. The formal act can't go ahead if there's any monk present in the monastery who neither shows up himself nor entrusts his consent to another. The point of all this is to maintain sangha unity.
Bristollad
Posts: 1121
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:39 am

Re: Monk rules...

Post by Bristollad »

Traditionally, the details of the rules are not taught or discussed with those who do not hold them. Konchok, I believe you have Tibetan teachers - if you are really interested, ask them about it. They are better placed to decide if it would be helpful for you to know.

That being said, the rules of the remaining Vinaya traditions pretty much parallel each other, even if they are enumerated differently.
Though I am sure the vinaya is well meant, and no offense to it...
The Vinaya teachings come from the Buddha and should be respected as much as any sutra teaching.
The antidote—to be free from the suffering of samsara—you need to be free from delusion and karma; you need to be free from ignorance, the root of samsara. So you need to meditate on emptiness. That is what you need. Lama Zopa Rinpoche
Giovanni
Posts: 765
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:07 am

Re: Monk rules...

Post by Giovanni »

Könchok Chödrak wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 1:01 am
Bristollad wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:53 pm See here for an outline of the vinaya.

https://www.dalailama.com/messages/budd ... -tradition

In addition, monastics also follow the rules of monastery/nunnery they are part of, and many will also have bodhisattva vows and tantric vows.

What is this referring to?:
Simple downfalls, sixth set of ten: e.g. 1. causing food to be cut off 2. touching fire 3. withdrawing consent, etc.
The ability to withdraw consent from something is one of the important things in life, a necessity to be able to live it, and a human right, so I am not at all sure what is meant here. Translation barrier (?)/ wording misunderstanding?

Though I am sure the vinaya is well meant, and no offense to it, I seem to want to know what this specific line means. If anyone is knowledgable, may they answer. It will help greatly.

Namaste.
Buddhadharma does not serve “human rights”. A purpose of Dharma is to stop taking birth in the human realm. Of course all people’s should be treated with fairness. But that does not mean an abstract like “rights”.
PeterC
Posts: 5191
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:38 pm

Re: Monk rules...

Post by PeterC »

Könchok Chödrak wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 1:01 am Though I am sure the vinaya is well meant, and no offense to it, I seem to want to know what this specific line means.
Why? Are you planning on ordaining?
User avatar
Budai
Posts: 878
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:12 pm
Location: ༀ ∞ Nam Myoho Renge Kyo ∞ ༀ

Re: Monk rules...

Post by Budai »

PeterC wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 2:21 pm
Könchok Chödrak wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 1:01 am Though I am sure the vinaya is well meant, and no offense to it, I seem to want to know what this specific line means.
Why? Are you planning on ordaining?
I have seriously been considering doing it in the future for at least some amount of time. I would Love to ordain in the Tibetan tradition, either in the Vajrayana or another Tibetan tradition, such as under the Karmapa or the Dalai Lama’s school. I have wanted to be a monk since I was 16, I’m in my 30’s now, and it’s really a primary determination of mine, so I know in some life I will do it. May as well be this one.

:bow:

Om Mani Padme Hum.
PeterC
Posts: 5191
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:38 pm

Re: Monk rules...

Post by PeterC »

Könchok Chödrak wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 2:27 pm
PeterC wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 2:21 pm
Könchok Chödrak wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 1:01 am Though I am sure the vinaya is well meant, and no offense to it, I seem to want to know what this specific line means.
Why? Are you planning on ordaining?
I have seriously been considering doing it in the future for at least some amount of time. I would Love to ordain in the Tibetan tradition, either in the Vajrayana or another Tibetan tradition, such as under the Karmapa or the Dalai Lama’s school. I have wanted to be a monk since I was 16, I’m in my 30’s now, and it’s really a primary determination of mine, so I know in some life I will do it. May as well be this one.

:bow:

Om Mani Padme Hum.
The issue you probably need to consider is not the vinaya - there's a lot to learn in that, but it was given by the Buddha, and upholding it creates great merit - but really the pragmatic issues such as money, support, etc. It's those issues that usually cause people to disrobe, or prevent them from ordaining in the first place.

Best of luck with your endeavors.
User avatar
Budai
Posts: 878
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:12 pm
Location: ༀ ∞ Nam Myoho Renge Kyo ∞ ༀ

Re: Monk rules...

Post by Budai »

PeterC wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 2:54 pm
Könchok Chödrak wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 2:27 pm
PeterC wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 2:21 pm

Why? Are you planning on ordaining?
I have seriously been considering doing it in the future for at least some amount of time. I would Love to ordain in the Tibetan tradition, either in the Vajrayana or another Tibetan tradition, such as under the Karmapa or the Dalai Lama’s school. I have wanted to be a monk since I was 16, I’m in my 30’s now, and it’s really a primary determination of mine, so I know in some life I will do it. May as well be this one.

:bow:

Om Mani Padme Hum.
The issue you probably need to consider is not the vinaya - there's a lot to learn in that, but it was given by the Buddha, and upholding it creates great merit - but really the pragmatic issues such as money, support, etc. It's those issues that usually cause people to disrobe, or prevent them from ordaining in the first place.

Best of luck with your endeavors.
Thank you. I will consider all of those things. And hopefully one day things will work out. :anjali:

Om.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Monk rules...

Post by Malcolm »

tellyontellyon wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 9:42 pm Hi,
What is the entire list of rules/precepts that a Tibetan monk takes?

Thank you.
:heart:
Look in Buddhist Ethics by Kongtrul. They are all listed there.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Monk rules...

Post by Malcolm »

Könchok Chödrak wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 2:27 pm
PeterC wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 2:21 pm
Könchok Chödrak wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 1:01 am Though I am sure the vinaya is well meant, and no offense to it, I seem to want to know what this specific line means.
Why? Are you planning on ordaining?
I have seriously been considering doing it in the future for at least some amount of time. I would Love to ordain in the Tibetan tradition, either in the Vajrayana...
One cannot ordain in the Vajrayāna. Pratimokṣa vows belong to śrāvakayāna.
or another Tibetan tradition, such as under the Karmapa or the Dalai Lama’s school. I have wanted to be a monk since I was 16, I’m in my 30’s now, and it’s really a primary determination of mine, so I know in some life I will do it. May as well be this one.
All Tibetan tradition are Vajrayāna.

Unless you are independently wealthy, do not become a monk. No one will support you.
User avatar
Budai
Posts: 878
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:12 pm
Location: ༀ ∞ Nam Myoho Renge Kyo ∞ ༀ

Re: Monk rules...

Post by Budai »

Malcolm wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 4:06 pm
Könchok Chödrak wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 2:27 pm
PeterC wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 2:21 pm

Why? Are you planning on ordaining?
I have seriously been considering doing it in the future for at least some amount of time. I would Love to ordain in the Tibetan tradition, either in the Vajrayana...
One cannot ordain in the Vajrayāna. Pratimokṣa vows belong to śrāvakayāna.
or another Tibetan tradition, such as under the Karmapa or the Dalai Lama’s school. I have wanted to be a monk since I was 16, I’m in my 30’s now, and it’s really a primary determination of mine, so I know in some life I will do it. May as well be this one.
All Tibetan tradition are Vajrayāna.

Unless you are independently wealthy, do not become a monk. No one will support you.
The śrāvakayāna is the voice-hearer Vehicle, correct? So the monkhood Vows in Tibetan a Buddhism are not ordination Vows is what you’re saying? Are they considered the ordination Vows for monks in Hinayana then?

I understand that that Vajrayana is a part of Mahayana, and from what I understand Tibetan Buddhism is both. I’m glad you said all Tibetan Buddhism is Vajrayana because that brings me closer to it. So all Tibetan Buddhism is Vajrayana, as well as Mahayana! That is quite interesting. Does it mean that all traditions contain Vajrayana, or does it entail that the entire Tibetan tradition is Vajrayana Buddhism, as well as Mahayana, in it’s exact method of practice.

Anyway, thank you for your response. I understand that wealth seems to be an issue in becoming a monk. It’s something to seriously consider, but I cannot think that it is correct that renouncing money would force someone to be even more dependent on it, needing to accumulate more of it. The way I honestly see it is that a monk should be able to live peacefully in a forest or mountain Temple and rely on alms and donations to provide food and such. But I don’t dispute what you are saying. I will keep that in mind.

From what I understand Tibetan monks don’t touch money? I think this is a nice rule. However, that’s too bad that they may end up still thinking about material wealth matters to support their practice. I hope a better way is found somehow with regards to that, not to say that monkhood isn’t a wonderful ideal in Buddhism.

:anjali:

Om Mani Padme Hum.
Last edited by Budai on Wed May 05, 2021 3:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Budai
Posts: 878
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:12 pm
Location: ༀ ∞ Nam Myoho Renge Kyo ∞ ༀ

Re: Monk rules...

Post by Budai »

Malcolm wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 4:06 pm One cannot ordain in the Vajrayāna. Pratimokṣa vows belong to śrāvakayāna.
I am wondering, here on he card I got from the Garchen Institute after taking Refuge in the Three Jewels, it says a possible “Ordination date.”

Image

Doesn’t this apply to a possible Vajrayana ordination some day in the Drikung Kagyu Lineage, which is a Vajrayana Tibetan Tradition?

Thank you.

Könchok.
amanitamusc
Posts: 2124
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:32 am

Re: Monk rules...

Post by amanitamusc »

A very kind Tibetan monk had no problem touching money when he paid for my dinner one Dakini day.
Bristollad
Posts: 1121
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:39 am

Re: Monk rules...

Post by Bristollad »

Könchok Chödrak wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 6:05 am
Malcolm wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 4:06 pm One cannot ordain in the Vajrayāna. Pratimokṣa vows belong to śrāvakayāna.
I am wondering, here on he card I got from the Garchen Institute after taking Refuge in the Three Jewels, it says a possible “Ordination date.”

Image

Doesn’t this apply to a possible Vajrayana ordination some day in the Drikung Kagyu Lineage, which is a Vajrayana Tibetan Tradition?

Thank you.

Könchok.
There is no such thing as Vajrayana monastic ordination. Monks and nuns in Tibet, Mongolia, Bhutan and so on, ordain according to the Mulasarvastivadin vinaya; in China (and some neighbouring areas) monks and nuns ordain according to the Dharmagupta vinaya; Buddhists in Thailand, Myanmar, Sri Lanka and so on ordain according to the Theravadin vinaya. In Japan, Buddhist clergy don't seem to follow any vinaya tradition now, which is why some people suggest calling them priests or ministers rather than monks or nuns.

Buddhism in Tibet is Mahayana. Within Mahayana, there is the path of the Perfection Vehicle and the path of Secret Mantra or Vajrayana. All Buddhist schools in Tibet combine Sutra (i.e. the Perfection of Wisdom Sutras) and Tantra.

One more thing to note, unlike in the Theravadin, the motivation at the time of ordination in the Mulasarvastivadin tradition is that one will maintain the vows for the rest of one's life. If one has the motivation, "I'm going to take these for just x years and then I'll disrobe and return to lay life," then it's said you won't actually be a holder of the vows even if you've gone through the ceremony.

Handling of money - in the Mulasarvastivadin tradition, monastics are forbidden to handle money (or gold and silver) whilst regarding it as being worthy, or with attachment. The Theravadin tradition actually isn't so different - they just hold that for us ordinary folk, not being attached to money and still using it is seen as practically impossible, so monastics are forbidden to even touch it. There is a similar difference in interpretation with regards to touching the opposite sex (or even letting their shadow touch oneself). In Theravadin discussions, they go as far as to say a monk is even not allowed to pull his drowning mother from a river, because it would mean that he had to touch a woman. Mulasarvastivadin explanation allows for touching (without lust or attachment) but still advises that it should be avoided unless necessary, due to how tricky our minds are. In my experience, many of those who disrobe, do so because of romantic entanglement so maybe the Theravadin have a point.
The antidote—to be free from the suffering of samsara—you need to be free from delusion and karma; you need to be free from ignorance, the root of samsara. So you need to meditate on emptiness. That is what you need. Lama Zopa Rinpoche
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Monk rules...

Post by Malcolm »

Könchok Chödrak wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 6:05 am
Doesn’t this apply to a possible Vajrayana ordination some day in the Drikung Kagyu Lineage, which is a Vajrayana Tibetan Tradition?
No. Ordination, pravrajita, going forth, is strictly a śrāvakayāna rite. There are no Vajrayāna ordination rites. There are Vajrayāna monks because in addition to receiving monastic ordination, they also receive bodhisattva vows and secret mantra samayas, and the latter two sets of vows supersede the former monastic ordination. You've already received bodhisattva vows and samayas. So you are a Vajrayāna upāsika (lay person), since you receive pratimoṣka vows when you took refuge with Garchen Rinpoche.
User avatar
Budai
Posts: 878
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:12 pm
Location: ༀ ∞ Nam Myoho Renge Kyo ∞ ༀ

Re: Monk rules...

Post by Budai »

Thank you, Malcolm. Can you explain in further detail why ordination is a śrāvakayāna rite? And why it entails the śrāvakayāna Vehicle? I personally want to be a monk someday, or study for a lengthy period of time under monks and such Teachers, where I can absorb their wisdom, primarily in the Tibetan tradition. I want to possibly go on a retreat when I am more connected to an orthodox way of Buddhist Practice in everyday life, and when I am able. So I understand, becoming a monk, what is that called as opposed to ordaining? I am interested in these things. And thank you so much Malcolm, I am very glad to be a lay follower of Tibetan Buddhism and Garchen Rinpoche and I plan on staying so for the rest of my life, even after this life and beyond.

Om.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Monk rules...

Post by Malcolm »

Könchok Chödrak wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 3:42 pm Thank you, Malcolm. Can you explain in further detail why ordination is a śrāvakayāna rite? And why it entails the śrāvakayāna Vehicle?
It has to do with the fact that each level of vow has its own rite of bestowal; its own set of vows; its own method of maintaining those vows; and its own method of repairing those vows if they are broken.

Pratimokṣa vows, the vows of personal liberation come from the śrāvaka schools and are detailed in Vinaya. The Tibetans follow the Mulasarvastivadins; Buddhists in Shri Lanka, Bangladesh, Myanmar, Thailand, Cambodia, and Laos follow the Theravada. East Asian countries such as China, Korea, and Japan, follow the Dharmaguptaka sect.

Then we have the bodhisattva vows. In the Tibean tradition there are two main traditions: Madhyamaka and Yogacāra. They are not different in meaning, but they are different in method of bestowal and the number of vows, etc. one is expected to follow. In China and Japan, the bodhisattva vows are derived from a sūtra that seems to not have an Indian source, the Brahamajala Sūtra. In the Theravada countries there is no rite at all for conferring bodhisattva vows.

Finally, secret mantras vows come from receiving empowerments in the Yoga Tantra and Anuttarayoga tantra.

So there are three kinds of vows, and they each have their own rite, and so on. This is why there is no "Vajrayāna" ordination per se. You should get Buddhist Ethics by Jamgon Kongtrul where the three vows are explained in detail.
Post Reply

Return to “Tibetan Buddhism”