Does a Vegan Damaru exist anywhere?

[peterscott87]

Looking for a damaru without leather. My teacher told me no such thing exists, and I've searched everywhere with no luck, but I have hope that maybe someone has more extensive knowledge than me.

[Giovanni]

I think you are making a basic misunderstanding of the practice here.
Perhaps your teacher could explain the doctrine why you will not find one.

[Malcolm]

Looking for a damaru without leather. My teacher told me no such thing exists, and I've searched everywhere with no luck, but I have hope that maybe someone has more extensive knowledge than me.

Doesn’t exist. Vajrayana and Veganism are mutually exclusive.

[Hazel]

Looking for a damaru without leather. My teacher told me no such thing exists, and I've searched everywhere with no luck, but I have hope that maybe someone has more extensive knowledge than me.

Doesn’t exist. Vajrayana and Veganism are mutually exclusive.

How so? I'm not vegan, but am curious.

[Malcolm]

Looking for a damaru without leather. My teacher told me no such thing exists, and I've searched everywhere with no luck, but I have hope that maybe someone has more extensive knowledge than me.

Doesn’t exist. Vajrayana and Veganism are mutually exclusive.

How so? I'm not vegan, but am curious.

One cannot, ultimately, have notions about food purity or the lack thereof. Most people are incapable of this, for this reason such transcendence of limitations is expressed in symbols.

[Sonam Wangchug]

Part of the respect for the practice and lineage is to practice the method on its own terms and not to project ones own values of how one thinks it should be upon the tradition. There is a reason why the materials are made the way they are, rest assured, the animal whose leather gets used for a Damaru is being benefitted far more than one just made for a random persons shoes.

Just my 2 cents

[Giovanni]

Part of the respect for the practice and lineage is to practice the method on its own terms and not to project ones own values of how one thinks it should be upon the tradition. There is a reason why the materials are made the way they are, rest assured, the animal whose leather gets used for a Damaru is being benefitted far more than one just made for a random persons shoes.

Just my 2 cents

The practices in the Vajra way have persisted for hundreds of years because they were revealed by great Siddhis. The Vajrayana does not need our novel western sensibilities to “improve” it. The old guys know what they are doing

[Tenma]

As Ananda states:

As The Great Tantra of the Primordial Buddha
emphatically forbids it,
those observing celibacy should never
receive the secret and wisdom empowerments.

If those practicing celibacy and asceticism
were to receive those empowerments,
they would be obliged to practice what is forbidden,
and their vows of austerity would thus deteriorate.

This creates a downfall which would
defeat those practicing yogic discipline.
As they would be certain to fall into the lower realms,
they would never gain accomplishment.

-The Lamp for the Path to Enlightenment
https://www.lotsawahouse.org/indian-mas ... ightenment

Though this is talking about celibacy, I'm sure the same applies to meat.

[Bristollad]

As Ananda states:

As The Great Tantra of the Primordial Buddha
emphatically forbids it,
those observing celibacy should never
receive the secret and wisdom empowerments.

If those practicing celibacy and asceticism
were to receive those empowerments,
they would be obliged to practice what is forbidden,
and their vows of austerity would thus deteriorate.

This creates a downfall which would
defeat those practicing yogic discipline.
As they would be certain to fall into the lower realms,
they would never gain accomplishment.

-The Lamp for the Path to Enlightenment
https://www.lotsawahouse.org/indian-mas ... ightenment

Though this is talking about celibacy, I'm sure the same applies to meat.

Why? The Mulasarvastivadin Vinaya does not forbid the eating of meat to monks and nuns nor the use of leather.
(and why do you start with "As Ananda states:" and proceed to quote from Atisha's Lamp for the Path?)

[Cinnabar]

I appreciate the point of our cultural ideas about the projected inherent purify of things being a problem.

One of my teachers addresses this directly. To get over ourselves. Eat whatever you want, but tsok is tsok. Eat the samaya substances without attachment and aversion.

At the same time, I can see a "vegan" damaru for simple pragmatic reasons. When I visit my partner overseas, her country is super vigilant about animal products coming in because of ecotastrophy. Can't bring in any food. Even airport/airplane food. I was lucky to bring in a couple chocolate bars for her.

Part of that is that they won't let in cultural leather products. Drums are big on the list.

So it's really not an impure vision thing. I've going to practice there it can't be a bone kangling or a leathered damaru. It's not an improvement thing. A judgement thing. A dualistic and moralistic thing. Hides aren't coming in.

I guess one argument is that a hide on a damaru has special properties. I guess I'm not convinced that people in this country of some 30M people can't now pratice Vajrayana because they can't import good damarus from India or Nepal. I guess they could buy them skinless and hide them themselves.

I guess I'm not convinced that people couldn't bring a "vegan" drum into that country and do good practice.

[Malcolm]

I guess I'm not convinced that people couldn't bring a "vegan" drum into that country and do good practice.

that's not the point.

[Cinnabar]

that's not the point.

I'm not sure what the original poster's point is.

He says he wan'ts a "vegan" damaru. It's his first post and he hasn't followed up.

I didn't take him as professing "veganism" or any particular position. I can't really from his post. I took him as just looking for a damaru without a leather skin.

Why? He doesn't say.

Could be a spiritual or philosophical confession. Such-- as he's a "vegan".

Could be a practical reason. Which is all I pointed out. There are pragmatic reasons completely divorced from moral evaluations of a piece of leather glued to a hollowed out bit of wood.

[Malcolm]

He says he wan'ts a "vegan" damaru. It's his first post and he hasn't followed up.

No such thing.

[Cinnabar]

So, as I'm taking "vegan damaru" to mean a damaru without a leather skin, not some confession about veganism...

... are you saying I really couldn't use such a beast in my practice?

It's not an abstract question for me, as there is a good chance I'll be moving to live with my darling where skins and turtle shells can't be imported.

[Malcolm]

So, as I'm taking "vegan damaru" to mean a damaru without a leather skin...

... are you saying I really couldn't use such a beast in my practice?

People can do whatever they want and they do. But there is no such a thing as a vegan damaru. Real damarus are made with skulls and skin.

[Cinnabar]

So, as I'm taking "vegan damaru" to mean a damaru without a leather skin...

... are you saying I really couldn't use such a beast in my practice?

People can do whatever they want and they do. But there is no such a thing as a vegan damaru. Damarus are made with skulls and skin.

I am aware they are made of skulls and skin.

But my question stands. If I move to where my partner is, and can not import animal products, does that mean I can't practice vajrayana with a damaru with a nonleather skin?

[climb-up]

So, as I'm taking "vegan damaru" to mean a damaru without a leather skin...

... are you saying I really couldn't use such a beast in my practice?

People can do whatever they want and they do. But there is no such a thing as a vegan damaru. Real damarus are made with skulls and skin.

They can be made from wood instead of skull.
Why would it be acceptable to use wood but not fiberskyn?

[Norwegian]

It is a lot better to understand the meaning of the teachings and why they are the way they are, and practicing according to them, instead of trying to make the teachings conform to you and your mental concepts, and how you feel they should be, instead of how they actually are.

As for regional or national laws, well laws are laws, you either respect them or you don't. And if you don't, you may have to face the consequences of your actions if you're caught breaking the laws. Which means, if it's illegal to bring in leather or bone or whatever in a country, then you must consider if you're willing to break the law or not. Here it is external conditions that may be a hindrance or obstacle, but not you and your own decisions based on like and dislike, good and bad, nice and ugly, pure and impure, and so on.

In other words, if you actually cannot get a damaru due to the laws, then it's best to not get in trouble and create problems. Work with circumstances.

But, if you are in a position where you are supposed to have a damaru, and you can get a damaru, but you choose not to because you want a "vegan damaru" instead, then this is solely on you and your own decision, and instead of trying to be free of judgement, dualistic vision, limitations, and so on, you are reinforcing all of these things, bringing in mental concepts, instead of going with the teachings themselves. And this is not good.

[Mantrik]

It is perfectly possible to visualise wood and plastic drums as skull and skin.
Buddhism is not an exercise in ossification (pun), but adapts to the circumstances in which it exists and in which it seeks to thrive.
These ritual items are not linked to killing or sacrifice, however, so I see no reason why a vegan would be perturbed. Unless they plan to eat their damaru, maybe?

[Malcolm]

So, as I'm taking "vegan damaru" to mean a damaru without a leather skin...

... are you saying I really couldn't use such a beast in my practice?

People can do whatever they want and they do. But there is no such a thing as a vegan damaru. Damarus are made with skulls and skin.

I am aware they are made of skulls and skin.

But my question stands. If I move to where my partner is, and can not import animal products, does that mean I can't practice vajrayana with a damaru with a nonleather skin?

I answered your question already.