Really sad. Such a gathering of vajra family together with ones guru should be a moment of profound joy.Cinnabar wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:29 pmYes. A lama taught here. Then we did a ganachakra at the end. A nice one. These three vegan peeps flipped the frak out. They kept the lid on it. Then they got preachy and left. Lama just laughed the whole time. The rest of us just watched.
Stranger things have happened at public teachings.
Does a Vegan Damaru exist anywhere?
Re: Does a Vegan Damaru exist anywhere?
Re: Does a Vegan Damaru exist anywhere?
Oof, lmao! My bad with the Ananda and Atisha confusion!Bristollad wrote: ↑Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:21 pmWhy? The Mulasarvastivadin Vinaya does not forbid the eating of meat to monks and nuns nor the use of leather.Tenma wrote: ↑Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:34 pm As Ananda states:
-The Lamp for the Path to EnlightenmentAs The Great Tantra of the Primordial Buddha
emphatically forbids it,
those observing celibacy should never
receive the secret and wisdom empowerments.
If those practicing celibacy and asceticism
were to receive those empowerments,
they would be obliged to practice what is forbidden,
and their vows of austerity would thus deteriorate.
This creates a downfall which would
defeat those practicing yogic discipline.
As they would be certain to fall into the lower realms,
they would never gain accomplishment.
https://www.lotsawahouse.org/indian-mas ... ightenment
Though this is talking about celibacy, I'm sure the same applies to meat.
(and why do you start with "As Ananda states:" and proceed to quote from Atisha's Lamp for the Path?)
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔
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Re: Does a Vegan Damaru exist anywhere?
Ah.... Sad indeed..Norwegian wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:38 pmReally sad. Such a gathering of vajra family together with ones guru should be a moment of profound joy.Cinnabar wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:29 pmYes. A lama taught here. Then we did a ganachakra at the end. A nice one. These three vegan peeps flipped the frak out. They kept the lid on it. Then they got preachy and left. Lama just laughed the whole time. The rest of us just watched.
Stranger things have happened at public teachings.
Out of curiosity, did the people who flipped out get preachy on just vegan grounds or did they also try to use Buddhism as justification?
KN
ma lu dzok pe san gye thop par shok!
Re: Does a Vegan Damaru exist anywhere?
Veganism is not just about diet. It's about ethical treatment of animals, and is based not only on diet, but that it is unethical to use any animal products for any reason, including honey, wool, and so on. It is perfectly fine to be a Buddhist vegan, but veganism is not Buddhism. It's a separate ethical tradition closer in spirit to Jainism.karmanyingpo wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:56 pmAh.... Sad indeed..Norwegian wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:38 pmReally sad. Such a gathering of vajra family together with ones guru should be a moment of profound joy.Cinnabar wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:29 pm
Yes. A lama taught here. Then we did a ganachakra at the end. A nice one. These three vegan peeps flipped the frak out. They kept the lid on it. Then they got preachy and left. Lama just laughed the whole time. The rest of us just watched.
Stranger things have happened at public teachings.
Out of curiosity, did the people who flipped out get preachy on just vegan grounds or did they also try to use Buddhism as justification?
KN
Re: Does a Vegan Damaru exist anywhere?
There certainly are millions of more vegans and vegetarians in the world because of Buddha’s Teachings though.
Re: Does a Vegan Damaru exist anywhere?
Oh. Buddhism was the justification, and veganism was the only natural expression of Buddhism.karmanyingpo wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:56 pmAh.... Sad indeed..Norwegian wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:38 pmReally sad. Such a gathering of vajra family together with ones guru should be a moment of profound joy.Cinnabar wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:29 pm
Yes. A lama taught here. Then we did a ganachakra at the end. A nice one. These three vegan peeps flipped the frak out. They kept the lid on it. Then they got preachy and left. Lama just laughed the whole time. The rest of us just watched.
Stranger things have happened at public teachings.
Out of curiosity, did the people who flipped out get preachy on just vegan grounds or did they also try to use Buddhism as justification?
KN
Re: Does a Vegan Damaru exist anywhere?
I guess I’m curious about my veg/vegan dharma siblings who don’t reject animal products as samaya substances.
They still consider themselves veg/vegan. I guess their veg/vegan peers might disagree.
Since they don’t reject samaya substances, can they practice vajrayana properly? Or are there other deficits?
They still consider themselves veg/vegan. I guess their veg/vegan peers might disagree.
Since they don’t reject samaya substances, can they practice vajrayana properly? Or are there other deficits?
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Re: Does a Vegan Damaru exist anywhere?
One would hope that students would see that ... at least in general ... the guru is the expert on Buddhism, not the student...Cinnabar wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:07 pmOh. Buddhism was the justification, and veganism was the only natural expression of Buddhism.karmanyingpo wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:56 pmAh.... Sad indeed..
Out of curiosity, did the people who flipped out get preachy on just vegan grounds or did they also try to use Buddhism as justification?
KN
And regarding your other question, I agree I would also like to know. It seems like many high respected teachers have recommended vegetarianism so I would assume that vegetarianism and veginism outside of settings like ganachakra feasts would be fine as long as pure perception was not sullied? Just my guess I hope someone can inform us.
KN
ma lu dzok pe san gye thop par shok!
Re: Does a Vegan Damaru exist anywhere?
If they dont reject the samaya substances, then they are by definition not vegans.Cinnabar wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:15 pm I guess I’m curious about my veg/vegan dharma siblings who don’t reject animal products as samaya substances.
They still consider themselves veg/vegan. I guess their veg/vegan peers might disagree.
Since they don’t reject samaya substances, can they practice vajrayana properly? Or are there other deficits?
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Re: Does a Vegan Damaru exist anywhere?
The funny thing I find about a number of vegans is that they're so militant about it they actually turn people off from veganism/vegetarianism.
If you're a vegan but your actions cause 2+ other people to not practice some vegetarianism, you're probably doing more harm than good.
But I find the amount of conceptual grasping in this thread to be pretty amazing. Sure it would be nice if your damaru is perfectly made with 0.01mm tolerance to the specific written down sizes from 3 centuries ago and made from the bones of a child who died by a lightning strike who was reborn seven times in a row as a Brahmin and wrapped in the leather of a goat who was born on a full moon and killed a snow lion with the skins left to dry in shade of mount Kailash, but sometimes you just need to be practical. Your pure view of yourself as the deity and the ritual implements as the deities implements is IMO much more important.
I've been practicing at home due to covid, and for the last retreat over zoom I used a didgeridoo instead of a rag-dung. The sound was just about right. Because of that am I not practicing Vajrayana? I don't think so. We're constantly making faults in the course of our practice and that's what Vajrasattva's for. As long as we keep trying to do better we'll get there eventually, and who knows, maybe that perfect damaru will show up when interdependence lines up just right.
If you're a vegan but your actions cause 2+ other people to not practice some vegetarianism, you're probably doing more harm than good.
But I find the amount of conceptual grasping in this thread to be pretty amazing. Sure it would be nice if your damaru is perfectly made with 0.01mm tolerance to the specific written down sizes from 3 centuries ago and made from the bones of a child who died by a lightning strike who was reborn seven times in a row as a Brahmin and wrapped in the leather of a goat who was born on a full moon and killed a snow lion with the skins left to dry in shade of mount Kailash, but sometimes you just need to be practical. Your pure view of yourself as the deity and the ritual implements as the deities implements is IMO much more important.
I've been practicing at home due to covid, and for the last retreat over zoom I used a didgeridoo instead of a rag-dung. The sound was just about right. Because of that am I not practicing Vajrayana? I don't think so. We're constantly making faults in the course of our practice and that's what Vajrasattva's for. As long as we keep trying to do better we'll get there eventually, and who knows, maybe that perfect damaru will show up when interdependence lines up just right.
Re: Does a Vegan Damaru exist anywhere?
Quite apart from ignoring the wishes of the lama, that’s a 13th root vow downfall. If they’re going to practice tantra, people should really take the time to understand their vows...Cinnabar wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:29 pmYes. A lama taught here. Then we did a ganachakra at the end. A nice one. These three vegan peeps flipped the frak out. They kept the lid on it. Then they got preachy and left. Lama just laughed the whole time. The rest of us just watched.
Stranger things have happened at public teachings.
Re: Does a Vegan Damaru exist anywhere?
Tibetan instruments are never mentioned in the tantras. So it does not matter which one you use.Jangchup Donden wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:37 pm I've been practicing at home due to covid, and for the last retreat over zoom I used a didgeridoo instead of a rag-dung.
But when it comes to vajras and bells, and vases, and so on, the production of all these things are very precisely described in lower tantras.
As far as damarus are concerned, they are described in higher tantras. There are two kinds described therein: skull damarus and wood damarus. Generally, it is considered that wrathful rites require the former, while peaceful rites require the latter.
Further, we should understand they are not appropriate to use in rites of the lower tantras, and only should be used in higher tantric rites.
However, there are differences between different schools. Nyingmapas tend to favor skull damarus, Gelugpas wooden ones. Wooden damarus should be made out of sandalwood, red sandalwood, catechu wood, or other non-poisonous woods. There are also precise sizes described for damarus.
As for the drum head, nothing other than skins are prescribed for either kind of damaru.
Re: Does a Vegan Damaru exist anywhere?
To be specific, the skull of a boy 16 and a girl, 12, who have reached puberty. Using the skulls of prepubescent children is inappropriate.Jangchup Donden wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:37 pm and made from the bones of a child who died by a lightning strike
Re: Does a Vegan Damaru exist anywhere?
How come?Malcolm wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 4:34 pmTo be specific, the skull of a boy 16 and a girl, 12, who have reached puberty. Using the skulls of prepubescent children is inappropriate.Jangchup Donden wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:37 pm and made from the bones of a child who died by a lightning strike
"Death's second name is 'omnipresent.' On the relative truth it seems we become separate. But on the absolute there is no separation." Lama Dawa
Re: Does a Vegan Damaru exist anywhere?
Because they represent the union of means and wisdom.climb-up wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 6:15 pmHow come?Malcolm wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 4:34 pmTo be specific, the skull of a boy 16 and a girl, 12, who have reached puberty. Using the skulls of prepubescent children is inappropriate.Jangchup Donden wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:37 pm and made from the bones of a child who died by a lightning strike
Re: Does a Vegan Damaru exist anywhere?
Re: Does a Vegan Damaru exist anywhere?
I think I understand (maybe).
Does having achieved puberty, and therefore being biologically an adult, then represent...
...I thought I had it, but it kind of fell apart.
Or is it a tsa, lung and tigle thing?
"Death's second name is 'omnipresent.' On the relative truth it seems we become separate. But on the absolute there is no separation." Lama Dawa
Re: Does a Vegan Damaru exist anywhere?
Vegan means a lot of things to a lot of people, and I’m sure there is a one true and correct definition of it, but that doesn’t reflect the actually usage.
I’m not technically a vegan at all, but I refer to myself as such because it’s too complicated to say I follow a vegan diet and appreciate the ethics, but that my x and y and blah blah blah ...and no one cares anyways!
In re: Cinnabar and the statement of other vegans not seeing a vegan who took samaya substance as being really vegan.
If that is important to said vegan, they can just keep it secret. Traditionally this is a secret ritual involving consuming substances that are not deemed acceptable by society.
"Death's second name is 'omnipresent.' On the relative truth it seems we become separate. But on the absolute there is no separation." Lama Dawa