Does a Vegan Damaru exist anywhere?

[Norwegian]

Of course I have seen the opposite. At one ganapuja there was a fight and nastiness over the presence of meat and alcohol.

People objected to meat and alcohol in a feast offering? How did that play out exactly? Did they know anything about the ritual they were performing, or the vows they had taken?

Yes. A lama taught here. Then we did a ganachakra at the end. A nice one. These three vegan peeps flipped the frak out. They kept the lid on it. Then they got preachy and left. Lama just laughed the whole time. The rest of us just watched.

Stranger things have happened at public teachings.

Really sad. Such a gathering of vajra family together with ones guru should be a moment of profound joy.

[Tenma]

As Ananda states:

As The Great Tantra of the Primordial Buddha
emphatically forbids it,
those observing celibacy should never
receive the secret and wisdom empowerments.

If those practicing celibacy and asceticism
were to receive those empowerments,
they would be obliged to practice what is forbidden,
and their vows of austerity would thus deteriorate.

This creates a downfall which would
defeat those practicing yogic discipline.
As they would be certain to fall into the lower realms,
they would never gain accomplishment.

-The Lamp for the Path to Enlightenment
https://www.lotsawahouse.org/indian-mas ... ightenment

Though this is talking about celibacy, I'm sure the same applies to meat.

Why? The Mulasarvastivadin Vinaya does not forbid the eating of meat to monks and nuns nor the use of leather.
(and why do you start with "As Ananda states:" and proceed to quote from Atisha's Lamp for the Path?)

Oof, lmao! My bad with the Ananda and Atisha confusion!

[karmanyingpo]

People objected to meat and alcohol in a feast offering? How did that play out exactly? Did they know anything about the ritual they were performing, or the vows they had taken?

Yes. A lama taught here. Then we did a ganachakra at the end. A nice one. These three vegan peeps flipped the frak out. They kept the lid on it. Then they got preachy and left. Lama just laughed the whole time. The rest of us just watched.

Stranger things have happened at public teachings.

Really sad. Such a gathering of vajra family together with ones guru should be a moment of profound joy.

Ah.... Sad indeed..
Out of curiosity, did the people who flipped out get preachy on just vegan grounds or did they also try to use Buddhism as justification?


KN

[Malcolm]

Yes. A lama taught here. Then we did a ganachakra at the end. A nice one. These three vegan peeps flipped the frak out. They kept the lid on it. Then they got preachy and left. Lama just laughed the whole time. The rest of us just watched.

Stranger things have happened at public teachings.

Really sad. Such a gathering of vajra family together with ones guru should be a moment of profound joy.

Ah.... Sad indeed..
Out of curiosity, did the people who flipped out get preachy on just vegan grounds or did they also try to use Buddhism as justification?


KN

Veganism is not just about diet. It's about ethical treatment of animals, and is based not only on diet, but that it is unethical to use any animal products for any reason, including honey, wool, and so on. It is perfectly fine to be a Buddhist vegan, but veganism is not Buddhism. It's a separate ethical tradition closer in spirit to Jainism.

[Cinnabar]

Really sad. Such a gathering of vajra family together with ones guru should be a moment of profound joy.

Well, there is a vow to not fight at a ganachakra. So I guess it’s a thing.

[Budai]

There certainly are millions of more vegans and vegetarians in the world because of Buddha’s Teachings though.

[Cinnabar]

Yes. A lama taught here. Then we did a ganachakra at the end. A nice one. These three vegan peeps flipped the frak out. They kept the lid on it. Then they got preachy and left. Lama just laughed the whole time. The rest of us just watched.

Stranger things have happened at public teachings.

Really sad. Such a gathering of vajra family together with ones guru should be a moment of profound joy.

Ah.... Sad indeed..
Out of curiosity, did the people who flipped out get preachy on just vegan grounds or did they also try to use Buddhism as justification?

KN

Oh. Buddhism was the justification, and veganism was the only natural expression of Buddhism.

[Cinnabar]

I guess I’m curious about my veg/vegan dharma siblings who don’t reject animal products as samaya substances.

They still consider themselves veg/vegan. I guess their veg/vegan peers might disagree.

Since they don’t reject samaya substances, can they practice vajrayana properly? Or are there other deficits?

[karmanyingpo]

Really sad. Such a gathering of vajra family together with ones guru should be a moment of profound joy.

Ah.... Sad indeed..
Out of curiosity, did the people who flipped out get preachy on just vegan grounds or did they also try to use Buddhism as justification?

KN

Oh. Buddhism was the justification, and veganism was the only natural expression of Buddhism.

One would hope that students would see that ... at least in general ... the guru is the expert on Buddhism, not the student...

And regarding your other question, I agree I would also like to know. It seems like many high respected teachers have recommended vegetarianism so I would assume that vegetarianism and veginism outside of settings like ganachakra feasts would be fine as long as pure perception was not sullied? Just my guess I hope someone can inform us.

KN

[Malcolm]

I guess I’m curious about my veg/vegan dharma siblings who don’t reject animal products as samaya substances.

They still consider themselves veg/vegan. I guess their veg/vegan peers might disagree.

Since they don’t reject samaya substances, can they practice vajrayana properly? Or are there other deficits?

If they dont reject the samaya substances, then they are by definition not vegans.

[Jangchup Donden]

The funny thing I find about a number of vegans is that they're so militant about it they actually turn people off from veganism/vegetarianism.

If you're a vegan but your actions cause 2+ other people to not practice some vegetarianism, you're probably doing more harm than good.

But I find the amount of conceptual grasping in this thread to be pretty amazing. Sure it would be nice if your damaru is perfectly made with 0.01mm tolerance to the specific written down sizes from 3 centuries ago and made from the bones of a child who died by a lightning strike who was reborn seven times in a row as a Brahmin and wrapped in the leather of a goat who was born on a full moon and killed a snow lion with the skins left to dry in shade of mount Kailash, but sometimes you just need to be practical. Your pure view of yourself as the deity and the ritual implements as the deities implements is IMO much more important.

I've been practicing at home due to covid, and for the last retreat over zoom I used a didgeridoo instead of a rag-dung. The sound was just about right. Because of that am I not practicing Vajrayana? I don't think so. We're constantly making faults in the course of our practice and that's what Vajrasattva's for. As long as we keep trying to do better we'll get there eventually, and who knows, maybe that perfect damaru will show up when interdependence lines up just right.

[Cinnabar]

If they dont reject the samaya substances, then they are by definition not vegans.

I’d consider a veg/vegan who takes the samaya substances but otherwise eats/lives veg/vegan— to be veg/vegan.

I know such people actually.

[PeterC]

Of course I have seen the opposite. At one ganapuja there was a fight and nastiness over the presence of meat and alcohol.

People objected to meat and alcohol in a feast offering? How did that play out exactly? Did they know anything about the ritual they were performing, or the vows they had taken?

Yes. A lama taught here. Then we did a ganachakra at the end. A nice one. These three vegan peeps flipped the frak out. They kept the lid on it. Then they got preachy and left. Lama just laughed the whole time. The rest of us just watched.

Stranger things have happened at public teachings.

Quite apart from ignoring the wishes of the lama, that’s a 13th root vow downfall. If they’re going to practice tantra, people should really take the time to understand their vows...

[Malcolm]

I've been practicing at home due to covid, and for the last retreat over zoom I used a didgeridoo instead of a rag-dung.

Tibetan instruments are never mentioned in the tantras. So it does not matter which one you use.

But when it comes to vajras and bells, and vases, and so on, the production of all these things are very precisely described in lower tantras.

As far as damarus are concerned, they are described in higher tantras. There are two kinds described therein: skull damarus and wood damarus. Generally, it is considered that wrathful rites require the former, while peaceful rites require the latter.

Further, we should understand they are not appropriate to use in rites of the lower tantras, and only should be used in higher tantric rites.

However, there are differences between different schools. Nyingmapas tend to favor skull damarus, Gelugpas wooden ones. Wooden damarus should be made out of sandalwood, red sandalwood, catechu wood, or other non-poisonous woods. There are also precise sizes described for damarus.

As for the drum head, nothing other than skins are prescribed for either kind of damaru.

[Malcolm]

and made from the bones of a child who died by a lightning strike

To be specific, the skull of a boy 16 and a girl, 12, who have reached puberty. Using the skulls of prepubescent children is inappropriate.

[climb-up]

and made from the bones of a child who died by a lightning strike

To be specific, the skull of a boy 16 and a girl, 12, who have reached puberty. Using the skulls of prepubescent children is inappropriate.

How come?

[Malcolm]

and made from the bones of a child who died by a lightning strike

To be specific, the skull of a boy 16 and a girl, 12, who have reached puberty. Using the skulls of prepubescent children is inappropriate.

How come?

Because they represent the union of means and wisdom.

[Malcolm]

If they dont reject the samaya substances, then they are by definition not vegans.

I’d consider a veg/vegan who takes the samaya substances but otherwise eats/lives veg/vegan— to be veg/vegan.

I know such people actually.

Ok, that's you.

[climb-up]

To be specific, the skull of a boy 16 and a girl, 12, who have reached puberty. Using the skulls of prepubescent children is inappropriate.

How come?

Because they represent the union of means and wisdom.

I think I understand (maybe).
Does having achieved puberty, and therefore being biologically an adult, then represent...
...I thought I had it, but it kind of fell apart.

Or is it a tsa, lung and tigle thing?

[climb-up]

If they dont reject the samaya substances, then they are by definition not vegans.

I’d consider a veg/vegan who takes the samaya substances but otherwise eats/lives veg/vegan— to be veg/vegan.

I know such people actually.

Ok, that's you.

Vegan means a lot of things to a lot of people, and I’m sure there is a one true and correct definition of it, but that doesn’t reflect the actually usage.
I’m not technically a vegan at all, but I refer to myself as such because it’s too complicated to say I follow a vegan diet and appreciate the ethics, but that my x and y and blah blah blah ...and no one cares anyways!

In re: Cinnabar and the statement of other vegans not seeing a vegan who took samaya substance as being really vegan.
If that is important to said vegan, they can just keep it secret. Traditionally this is a secret ritual involving consuming substances that are not deemed acceptable by society.