Practicing without empowerment

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heart
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by heart »

Könchok Chödrak wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:20 pm
heart wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:16 pm
Könchok Chödrak wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:11 pm Is there a Teaching about the various Bodhisattva Vows carrying over? Because not every Bodhisattva can be born into a situation where they can formally take the Vows again under a Teacher sometimes, but according to the needs of the living entities, the Bodhisattva comes. This is true for Avalokakitesvara, and such others. Are the Bodhisattva Vows considered Eternal as long as one keeps them?
Of course not, how can you keep a vow you don't remember? But Bodhisattvas will for sure meet the vows every life, and they will also keep them.

/magnus
Wouldn’t some of the most important things in life carry over from a past life, as there are Tulkus and Lamas who can remember their trinkets from past lives and in that way become recognized as reincarnations? It is possible to remember past lives, and many Advanced practitioners can recognize others as reincarnations.
Yes, until they actually apply the teachings again they only remember trinkets of their previous life.

/magnus
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Budai »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:31 pm
Könchok Chödrak wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:29 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:25 pm

Yes, the bodhisattva vows are the only vows that one carries from one life to the next.
Thank you. Much like this, so does being a Buddha :smile: , of course. This is a basic fundamental truth that must be understood by all in Metta. I think the Bodhisattvas who have reached the stage of no regression mentioned by Shakyamuni in the Lotus Sutra for example, are doing some of the best work for us, and we should all aspire to be like them, for they will no doubt reach Supreme Perfect Enlightenment in their search for it!
A Buddha doesn't get reborn once they are a Buddha...
Not in the literal sense. But they appear to be reborn, don’t they? There is the Theravadin view by some that Gautama isn’t coming back at all, but the Mahayana view from what the Lotus Sutra (The White Lotus of the Good Dharma in Tibetan) has stated is that Buddha, even after Enlightenment, has been in this world for eons. He attained Enlightenment, which it is said in that Sutra, asamkhyas of kalpas ago as Bodhisattva Never Disparaging. The Buddha is in a true extinction, but He Emanates into this entire world from place to place, from time to time, to help guide sentient beings. He is not “born” neither does He “die”, but it appears that way, and often it is written about in such a way in the Suttas, Sutras, and commentaries and books. But what you have stated is correct. He is well gone. And we must do everything we can so that the Buddha will rest in Tranquility. Om. Namaste.
Last edited by Budai on Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Danny »

Könchok Chödrak wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:16 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:31 pm
Könchok Chödrak wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:29 pm

Thank you. Much like this, so does being a Buddha :smile: , of course. This is a basic fundamental truth that must be understood by all in Metta. I think the Bodhisattvas who have reached the stage of no regression mentioned by Shakyamuni in the Lotus Sutra for example, are doing some of the best work for us, and we should all aspire to be like them, for they will no doubt reach Supreme Perfect Enlightenment in their search for it!
A Buddha doesn't get reborn once they are a Buddha...
Not in the literal sense. But they appear to be reborn, don’t they?
No
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Budai »

Danny wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:15 pm
Könchok Chödrak wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:16 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:31 pm

A Buddha doesn't get reborn once they are a Buddha...
Not in the literal sense. But they appear to be reborn, don’t they?
No
Well then you have a very discerning perception. :anjali:
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Arnoud »

There is a difference between rebirth and emanation.
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Danny »

Arnoud wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:52 pm There is a difference between rebirth and emanation.
Aspects.

Without details and explanation..
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Arnoud »

The way I understand it is that a sentient being gets reborn and a Buddha emanates.
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Danny »

Arnoud wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:19 pm The way I understand it is that a sentient being gets reborn and a Buddha emanates.
This is “this and them” thinking.
I reject that. Otherwise what’s the point of the path?
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Arnoud »

Yes, the Dzogchen POV is different from that but this is not that forum. There is a place for everything.

From the pov of the basis we are all just appearances. If we truly know, we are Buddhas; if we don't, we think we are sentient beings.
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Arnoud »

Danny wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:37 pm
Arnoud wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:19 pm The way I understand it is that a sentient being gets reborn and a Buddha emanates.
This is “this and them” thinking.
I reject that. Otherwise what’s the point of the path?
I just realized I don't really understand what "this and them" thinking means. I think you reject that way of thinking. But if you didn't, what would be the point of the path? The otherwise is throwing me off.
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Budai »

Arnoud wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:19 pm The way I understand it is that a sentient being gets reborn and a Buddha emanates.
Can someone Emanate from the Amida Buddha Pure Land by some Transcendental Power without being born or reborn, say, if they are a powerful Bodhisattva for example?
Last edited by Budai on Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Virgo »

Hazel wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:27 pm
What happens if someone does, though?

I've heard on one end of the spectrum that the practice is simply without fruit and on the other end of the spectrum that bad things will happen to you in this life.

What are the official schools of thought on this?
It's probably something akin to connecting to a rogue access point.

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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Budai »

I think the best thing to do would to be to listen to a Realized Teacher about Empowerments, and practicing with them, or how much work one needs to do to have one, and if one can’t, due to circumstance, still wanting to do the practice, what to do then. Because our Teachers are there to guide us to the Highest Point of Buddhism.
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Arnoud »

Könchok Chödrak wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:49 pm
Arnoud wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:19 pm The way I understand it is that a sentient being gets reborn and a Buddha emanates.
Can someone Emanate from the Amida Buddha Pure Land by some Transcendental Power without being born or reborn, say, if they are a powerful Bodhisattva for example?
I think it was 1st level Bodhisattva’s can have up to 100 emanations. Guess it just means quite a bit but not unlimited like a Buddha. I don’t know what you mean by Transcendental Power. I think emanations can be born through the 4 ways.
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Tata1 »

Danny wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:37 pm
Arnoud wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:19 pm The way I understand it is that a sentient being gets reborn and a Buddha emanates.
This is “this and them” thinking.
I reject that. Otherwise what’s the point of the path?
This is pretty standard mahayana buddhism. I mean, what you are rejecting
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Varis »

Probably rebirth as a ghost in the form of the diety. This can happen to Vajrayanis who practice improperly too.
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Giovanni »

Könchok Chödrak wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:02 am I think the best thing to do would to be to listen to a Realized Teacher about Empowerments, and practicing with them, or how much work one needs to do to have one, and if one can’t, due to circumstance, still wanting to do the practice, what to do then. Because our Teachers are there to guide us to the Highest Point of Buddhism.
If it is not possible to get the necessary empowerments then do other practices. There are many. If your karma does not enable you to cross paths with HYT then generate the merit for future lives. There is much to do. Many ways to raise Bodhicitta. Many in need of meritorious acts.
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Soma999 »

To answer this question, this is important to understand well what really is an initiation.

It is the fundamental aspect of secred mantra, the difference between sutra and tantra.

Initiation means lineage and transmission. It means the practice are alive, practiced, realised and transmitted. It means they are alive.
Every word is alive. It is the process of lung too, you heard it from someone who heard it from... and so on.

You are connected to a living chain of realisation and you are part of this chain. You connect to this chain and becomes part of it.

What is specific about secred mantra ? Transformation of perception. It is all based upon the empty nature of things. As things are empty by themselves, they do not have a definite meaning, and as such we can transform how we view them.

We can transform everything into its enlightened nature, that is if we connect to enlightened energy and integrate it, we will transform the view of our body, of our energy and of our mind.

Body get liberated into the body of the deity.
Energy gets liberated into the mantra.
Mind gets liberated into its true nature.

The mandala is a map of the universe (outer, inner) from an enlightened perspective. In this perspective, even dangerous and harmful forces are liberated into beneficial energy. When they enter the mandala they becomes beneficial.

Initiation opens up to realising a mandala, that is to integrate an elightened perspective of energy and consciousness.

A lama (guru) who has acheived realisation can transmits enlightened energy that allows to integrate this perspective. You become also
connected with a lineage of realisation.

Who really transmts the initiation ? Is is the nirmanakaya ? Or it is the sanbogakaya form of the lama ? The sambogakaya is not restrained by
space and time and can reach anyone through space and time. The nirmanakaya aspect of the guru is a way to connect to it.

When one understand that true iniitation is given not by the body, not by the vase, not by any substance, but by another aspect that can makes use of rituals... or not, then one realise the initiation can comes in a number of ways and form.

That is, you can be introduced to the nature of your mind, and see it as the nature of the deity in a myriads of way.

Initiation after initiation, you connecter deeper and deeper to your nature. And it has to be done again and again, as a constant reminder,
and to allow for the seeds of Buddha nature to grow.

When one can rest into the nature of mind, that is the greatest initiation, as all deities emerge from this. When you realise it, mind, guru, deity, all one, and rest in it, that is the highest initiation.

People want to touch the lama sometime, think they will get blessings. But the lama in its most radiant expression is in the nature of mind. So, by performing the practice, and raising to the nature of mind, you find the true guru and gets blessings in another way.

Now, what does it means to practice without initiation ? Does that means someone did not participate in an empowerment ceremony ? Does that means someone did not realise the nature of the deity ? Does that means someone feel the deity is external and not a manifestation of enlightened energy ? Does that means someone practice in a "solo" manner considering all comes from himself, instead of connecting with higher beings and asking for inspiration and transmission ?

It can means a lot of things.

Lama Yeshe said even people who went to empowerment ceremony, no one can say if they really got it. You can think you have an initiation, but it is not sure at all. We all do our best, that is all we can really do.

Some people can receive also darshan or initiation in a myriad of ways, as connecting with the sambogakaya aspect of the lama can be done in a myriad of ways, even through practice. And the sambakaya aspect of the lama can transmits energy and help mature.

In the FPMT they say if you don't have this initiation you can do the practice but do not identify as the deity. You visualise it in front of you. That is a perspective.

I won't propose a specific answer to this question. Just some reflections in case it may interest some who are willing to open to other way of thinking.
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Tenma »

Könchok Chödrak wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:16 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:31 pm
Könchok Chödrak wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:29 pm

Thank you. Much like this, so does being a Buddha :smile: , of course. This is a basic fundamental truth that must be understood by all in Metta. I think the Bodhisattvas who have reached the stage of no regression mentioned by Shakyamuni in the Lotus Sutra for example, are doing some of the best work for us, and we should all aspire to be like them, for they will no doubt reach Supreme Perfect Enlightenment in their search for it!
A Buddha doesn't get reborn once they are a Buddha...
Not in the literal sense. But they appear to be reborn, don’t they? There is the Theravadin view by some that Gautama isn’t coming back at all, but the Mahayana view from what the Lotus Sutra (The White Lotus of the Good Dharma in Tibetan) has stated is that Buddha, even after Enlightenment, has been in this world for eons. He attained Enlightenment, which it is said in that Sutra, asamkhyas of kalpas ago as Bodhisattva Never Disparaging. The Buddha is in a true extinction, but He Emanates into this entire world from place to place, from time to time, to help guide sentient beings. He is not “born” neither does He “die”, but it appears that way, and often it is written about in such a way in the Suttas, Sutras, and commentaries and books. But what you have stated is correct. He is well gone. And we must do everything we can so that the Buddha will rest in Tranquility. Om. Namaste.
Hang on, what?
Everytime I learn something about this or that, I fail to understand what on earth Buddhism's purpose is. I thought enlightenment was to cease suffering and rebirth, am I wrong? So if a person enters enlightenment, is it just mere "tranquil rest" or helping others? What difference does this make from any mythology where immortal gods help people? I can understand bodhisattvas but I thought such tathagatas would be long gone afterwards! I'm very confused on what the point of enlightenment is now.
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Malcolm »

Tenma wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:50 pm
Könchok Chödrak wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:16 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:31 pm

A Buddha doesn't get reborn once they are a Buddha...
Not in the literal sense. But they appear to be reborn, don’t they? There is the Theravadin view by some that Gautama isn’t coming back at all, but the Mahayana view from what the Lotus Sutra (The White Lotus of the Good Dharma in Tibetan) has stated is that Buddha, even after Enlightenment, has been in this world for eons. He attained Enlightenment, which it is said in that Sutra, asamkhyas of kalpas ago as Bodhisattva Never Disparaging. The Buddha is in a true extinction, but He Emanates into this entire world from place to place, from time to time, to help guide sentient beings. He is not “born” neither does He “die”, but it appears that way, and often it is written about in such a way in the Suttas, Sutras, and commentaries and books. But what you have stated is correct. He is well gone. And we must do everything we can so that the Buddha will rest in Tranquility. Om. Namaste.
Hang on, what?
Everytime I learn something about this or that, I fail to understand what on earth Buddhism's purpose is. I thought enlightenment was to cease suffering and rebirth, am I wrong?
Correct, you are not wrong.


So if a person enters enlightenment, is it just mere "tranquil rest" or helping others?
Full awakening in Mahāyāna means eliminating the afflictive obscuration, which causes rebirth in the three realms, and eliminating the knowledge obscuration, which prevents one from knowing all paths.

Because of eliminating the first obscuration, one has power over birth, and can appear in any place to help sentient beings; because one has the eliminated the knowledge obscuration, one knows how to lead any sentient being with the appropriate path.
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