Practicing without empowerment

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Hazel
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Practicing without empowerment

Post by Hazel »

First, I have ZERO intention of practicing without an empowerment. I take that seriously.

What happens if someone does, though?

I've heard on one end of the spectrum that the practice is simply without fruit and on the other end of the spectrum that bad things will happen to you in this life.

What are the official schools of thought on this?
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Archie2009 »

I think that it is without fruit is beyond doubt.
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by karmanyingpo »

Hazel wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:27 pm First, I have ZERO intention of practicing without an empowerment. I take that seriously.

What happens if someone does, though?

I've heard on one end of the spectrum that the practice is simply without fruit and on the other end of the spectrum that bad things will happen to you in this life.

What are the official schools of thought on this?
I think it depends on the practice, no?

I think practicing for example Tara or Chenrezig without empowerment is not likely to cause bad things to happen, if you are working under a lama's direction and especially if you have a transmission.

Trying to do a Mahakala sadhana for example is likely to be much different....

Personally I find this to be a useful view and approach: view the teacher and the practice as inseperable. It is not Lama So And So and THEN Sadhana So and So... It is Sadhana So and So + Lama So and So part and parcel, the teacher is not something in between you and the practice but part of the practice it self. So whatever they say, assuming of course they are a legitimate real qualified teacher, that is good to follow. If the teacher who teaches you the practice says okay you can do this now, then you can trust that those are your instructions for your practice that you have received, if they say you can do this now that you have my transmission or this other person's transmission, that is your instruction for the practice and good to follow, if they say you need empowerment then that is good to follow and so on

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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Danny »

Hazel wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:27 pm

What happens if someone does, though?
Practicing as a aspiration is ok, but reality is nothing will occur. Empowerment is the heart of the transmission,
Without it is like trying to live without a heart.
There’s no life to it.
A person cannot achieve the function of a practice without.
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

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Hazel wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:27 pm First, I have ZERO intention of practicing without an empowerment. I take that seriously.

What happens if someone does, though?

I've heard on one end of the spectrum that the practice is simply without fruit and on the other end of the spectrum that bad things will happen to you in this life.

What are the official schools of thought on this?
Everything from "nothing much will happen" to "you will cut off future connections to Dharma"...and everything in between. "Official schools of thought" run the gamut...like everything in Vajrayana.

For unrestricted practices such as Chenrezig and Tara, I've had my teachers say it creates a good connection to earnestly practice them, including the possibility of empowerment down the line. This was exactly how I was instructed - do the unrestricted practices (with a Lama and group, limited way on own time) and get empowerment when you can.
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Chaz »

As others have pointed out, it depends on the practice.

There are unrestricted Chenrezig, Tara, Medicine Budda, Amithabha and Vajrasatva practices. They donr really have "empowerments" per se. They can have reading transmission or "lung". This is someone qualified to do so, reads you the liturgy. That can be a lama or in some cases someone who has recieved the transmission before. A lung is optional. It's said to increase the merit of the practice, but isn't a strict requirement.
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Budai »

Is there an official Teaching for how Empowerments from past lives carry over?
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Giovanni »

Könchok Chödrak wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:12 am Is there an official Teaching for how Empowerments from past lives carry over?
It doesn’t. There might well be a karmic connection which carries the person towards a particular practice and results in them rediscovering a past link. But they will need a fresh Empowerment from a lineage holder.
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Lingpupa »

Könchok Chödrak wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:12 am Is there an official Teaching for how Empowerments from past lives carry over?
The answer is short: they don't. Some affinity for the practice might, but the empowerment does not.
All best wishes

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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by PeterC »

Hazel wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:27 pm First, I have ZERO intention of practicing without an empowerment. I take that seriously.

What happens if someone does, though?

I've heard on one end of the spectrum that the practice is simply without fruit and on the other end of the spectrum that bad things will happen to you in this life.

What are the official schools of thought on this?
There are plenty of things you can do without an empowerment. You can do lojong, shamatha, read sutras, recite prayers, observe ethical conduct, etc.

You can’t do tantric practices without an empowerment, however, aside from possibly one or two mantras. As many have pointed out, empowerments are taken on the basis of this body and therefore do not carry over from past lives.

If one does practice something that requires empowerment the best result you can have is nothing at all. The worst is that you accrue negative karma from having violated the secrecy of the texts, making it harder to receive them properly. But how that plays out would be situation-specific. The important point is that there is no positive outcome from engaging in practices for which you lack the correct authorization.
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Malcolm »

Könchok Chödrak wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:12 am Is there an official Teaching for how Empowerments from past lives carry over?
Yes, the official teaching is that they do not.
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:23 pm
Könchok Chödrak wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:12 am Is there an official Teaching for how Empowerments from past lives carry over?
Yes, the official teaching is that they do not.
I have always wondered, how is it possible then that just barely keeping samayas pure leads to liberation within 16 lifetimes?
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Malcolm »

Könchok Thrinley wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:20 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:23 pm
Könchok Chödrak wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:12 am Is there an official Teaching for how Empowerments from past lives carry over?
Yes, the official teaching is that they do not.
I have always wondered, how is it possible then that just barely keeping samayas pure leads to liberation within 16 lifetimes?
One needs to keep them in order to meet Vajrayana teachings again in each of those lifetimes. Hence, the aspirations to meet the guru again and again.
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Budai »

Is there a Teaching about the various Bodhisattva Vows carrying over? Because not every Bodhisattva can be born into a situation where they can formally take the Vows again under a Teacher sometimes, but according to the needs of the living entities, the Bodhisattva comes. This is true for Avalokakitesvara, and such others. Are the Bodhisattva Vows considered Eternal as long as one keeps them?
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

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Könchok Chödrak wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:11 pm Is there a Teaching about the various Bodhisattva Vows carrying over? Because not every Bodhisattva can be born into a situation where they can formally take the Vows again under a Teacher sometimes, but according to the needs of the living entities, the Bodhisattva comes. This is true for Avalokakitesvara, and such others. Are the Bodhisattva Vows considered Eternal as long as one keeps them?
“Eternal”? The great Mahasattvas are not gods. They arise in Great Emptiness and dissolve in Great Emptiness.
There are two extremes to avoid, one to see Bodhisattvas as only symbols. The other extreme is to reify them and make them entities with permanence.
Last edited by Giovanni on Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by heart »

Könchok Chödrak wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:11 pm Is there a Teaching about the various Bodhisattva Vows carrying over? Because not every Bodhisattva can be born into a situation where they can formally take the Vows again under a Teacher sometimes, but according to the needs of the living entities, the Bodhisattva comes. This is true for Avalokakitesvara, and such others. Are the Bodhisattva Vows considered Eternal as long as one keeps them?
Of course not, how can you keep a vow you don't remember? But Bodhisattvas will for sure meet the vows every life, and they will also keep them.

/magnus
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"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Budai »

heart wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:16 pm
Könchok Chödrak wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:11 pm Is there a Teaching about the various Bodhisattva Vows carrying over? Because not every Bodhisattva can be born into a situation where they can formally take the Vows again under a Teacher sometimes, but according to the needs of the living entities, the Bodhisattva comes. This is true for Avalokakitesvara, and such others. Are the Bodhisattva Vows considered Eternal as long as one keeps them?
Of course not, how can you keep a vow you don't remember? But Bodhisattvas will for sure meet the vows every life, and they will also keep them.

/magnus
Wouldn’t some of the most important things in life carry over from a past life, as there are Tulkus and Lamas who can remember their trinkets from past lives and in that way become recognized as reincarnations? It is possible to remember past lives, and many Advanced practitioners can recognize others as reincarnations.
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Malcolm »

Könchok Chödrak wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:11 pm Is there a Teaching about the various Bodhisattva Vows carrying over?
Yes, the bodhisattva vows are the only vows that one carries from one life to the next.
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Budai »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:25 pm
Könchok Chödrak wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:11 pm Is there a Teaching about the various Bodhisattva Vows carrying over?
Yes, the bodhisattva vows are the only vows that one carries from one life to the next.
Thank you. Much like this, so does being a Buddha :smile: , of course. This is a basic fundamental truth that must be understood by all in Metta. I think the Bodhisattvas who have reached the stage of no regression mentioned by Shakyamuni in the Lotus Sutra, for example, are doing some of the best work for us, and we should all aspire to be like them, for they will no doubt reach Supreme Perfect Enlightenment in their search for it!
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Könchok Chödrak wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:29 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:25 pm
Könchok Chödrak wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:11 pm Is there a Teaching about the various Bodhisattva Vows carrying over?
Yes, the bodhisattva vows are the only vows that one carries from one life to the next.
Thank you. Much like this, so does being a Buddha :smile: , of course. This is a basic fundamental truth that must be understood by all in Metta. I think the Bodhisattvas who have reached the stage of no regression mentioned by Shakyamuni in the Lotus Sutra, for example, are doing some of the best work for us, and we should all aspire to be like them, for they will no doubt reach Supreme Perfect Enlightenment in their search for it!
A Buddha doesn't get reborn once they are a Buddha...
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
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