Practicing without empowerment

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Not sure I understand what you're asking but here's my basic take based on what I've learned and been taught, any mistake is my own:

Any statements that involve comparison, separation, etc. are relative truth, by definition. There is much less you can accruately say about ultimate truth, and that's why methods to understand it tend to involve exhausting the possibilities of conceptual thinking - of relative truth- for example Madhyamaka analysis or a Koan.

The Two Truths is not just some philosophical position, , it is praxis for moving past concepts.
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Giovanni
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Giovanni »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:45 pm
Giovanni wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:54 am With all good wishes you need to study some basic Buddhadharma. You would not then use terms like The Absolute which the Buddha explained carefully are not compatible with his Dharma.
We live in difficult and confusing times. There is a temptation to create our own dharma in place of the Buddhas Dharma. So we take some New Age sentiments and we mix with a little Nichiren and Pure Land then we read about Vajrayana so we take a Tibetan name. I did this too, although I have never had interest at all in Nicherin, but I mixed and wanted all to be happy.
In the end I knew I had to take a vehicle and practice it. And to remove my own interpretation to see what was being said really.
I get what you are saying here, but terms like "ultimate" or "absolute" are used plenty in Buddhist circles to describe and talk about one of the two truths. They aren't made into a monad or reified (or at least shouldn't be), but they are pretty common. A newer person might not even be able to make the distinction, it requires some study time, especially if one is not particularly inclined towards this kind of thought (I know I'm not).

Of course, even a Shentongpa might shy away from talking about something like "The Absolute", this is more about how words are used than the words themselves.

In general I agree, it is very easy in Buddhism to find all this cool, shiny stuff and to ignore the basics. The shiny stuff is (in my personal experience) incomprehensible without the basics.
What the member says in the post I was quoting from was not referring to the Two Truths I think,he refers to having received Empowerments from The Absolute which in some way lead the person receiving back to The Absolute.
Now I may have misunderstood. but that sounds to me like some kind of Theistic belief. It becomes more a problem when we look at some other posts from the same person which seem to show a need to hold on to an idea of an atman of some kind. Which can carry over from birth to birth.
I appreciate the desire for tolerance to other faiths but I think this does not help us understand Buddhadharma.
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

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Giovanni wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:29 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:45 pm
Giovanni wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:54 am With all good wishes you need to study some basic Buddhadharma. You would not then use terms like The Absolute which the Buddha explained carefully are not compatible with his Dharma.
We live in difficult and confusing times. There is a temptation to create our own dharma in place of the Buddhas Dharma. So we take some New Age sentiments and we mix with a little Nichiren and Pure Land then we read about Vajrayana so we take a Tibetan name. I did this too, although I have never had interest at all in Nicherin, but I mixed and wanted all to be happy.
In the end I knew I had to take a vehicle and practice it. And to remove my own interpretation to see what was being said really.
I get what you are saying here, but terms like "ultimate" or "absolute" are used plenty in Buddhist circles to describe and talk about one of the two truths. They aren't made into a monad or reified (or at least shouldn't be), but they are pretty common. A newer person might not even be able to make the distinction, it requires some study time, especially if one is not particularly inclined towards this kind of thought (I know I'm not).

Of course, even a Shentongpa might shy away from talking about something like "The Absolute", this is more about how words are used than the words themselves.

In general I agree, it is very easy in Buddhism to find all this cool, shiny stuff and to ignore the basics. The shiny stuff is (in my personal experience) incomprehensible without the basics.
What the member says in the post I was quoting from was not referring to the Two Truths I think,he refers to having received Empowerments from The Absolute which in some way lead the person receiving back to The Absolute.
Now I may have misunderstood. but that sounds to me like some kind of Theistic belief. It becomes more a problem when we look at some other posts from the same person which seem to show a need to hold on to an idea of an atman of some kind. Which can carry over from birth to birth.
I appreciate the desire for tolerance to other faiths but I think this does not help us understand Buddhadharma.
Yes, I agree with this part. Like I said, in my personal experience slowly and patiently learning and refining basic Buddhist concepts is an important foundation for studying Zen, Vajrayana, Dzogchen, or any teaching that is based on direct experience, otherwise you can take things in all kinds of haphazard directions. Even in terms of basic cultural conditioning, many of us have a default set of "spiritual" ideas that in the end are not compatible with what we will learn in Buddhism. It does require us to "empty the cup" some, and to be prepared to be challenged.

I think there is a distinction to be made here, starting from a "default" place where we have ideas like that is not really the problem, the problem is continuing to think in that way when we have a choice to step out of it. Buddhadharma in a large way is shifting our cognitive process on the deepest level possible. Some people really are drawn towards eternalism, and some are drawn the other direction. If someone has a good teacher they will be diligently led to abandon both of these habits on a daily basis, and over time we lose the habit of living and thinking through the lens of these polarities.

Also let's be fair here: There are lots of people raised with Buddhism who hold to ideas that drift to the eternalist side of things, if anything our culture often has the opposite tendency.
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Giovanni »

Certainly that is so. And to be full of enthusiasm and goodwill is always a good thing. We are all making our way like men in the dark feeling for a wall. Teachers are a great blessing. They can throw a switch for lights to come on when we are ready to listen to them. We have so many ideas..we all do this 🙂
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Budai »

You’re both a great Blessing.

Om Mani Padme Hum.
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

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Könchok Chödrak wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:37 pm You’re both a great Blessing.

Om Mani Padme Hum.
So was Atisha's tea boy :rolling:
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Kieltiel871 »

It's very disappointing that so many have forgotten shakyamuni's teachings on the counterproductivity of ritualism. Empowerments are symbolic, meant to give a baseline understanding of a particular tantra. It's not some magical permission from a diety. It is the clarity, the awoken Buddha nature, required to understand and effectively accomplish what you practice. Claiming Empowerment is always required for a certain practice, full stop, is ignorance. They are not required, especially by beings of advanced karmic potential from birth. If you have the ability to complete the practice accurately, Empowerment is redundant. However, for the overwhelming majority of cases, the practice will not be successful without it. We must not regress to simply parrotting teachings we misunderstand, especially without firsthand experience.
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

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Kieltiel871 wrote: Thu Aug 31, 2023 9:23 pm It's very disappointing that so many have forgotten shakyamuni's teachings on the counterproductivity of ritualism. Empowerments are symbolic, meant to give a baseline understanding of a particular tantra. It's not some magical permission from a diety. It is the clarity, the awoken Buddha nature, required to understand and effectively accomplish what you practice. Claiming Empowerment is always required for a certain practice, full stop, is ignorance. They are not required, especially by beings of advanced karmic potential from birth. If you have the ability to complete the practice accurately, Empowerment is redundant. However, for the overwhelming majority of cases, the practice will not be successful without it. We must not regress to simply parrotting teachings we misunderstand, especially without firsthand experience.
So you say. I will stick with the words of my teachers. Empowerment is an essential prerequisite.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
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དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

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Kieltiel871 wrote: Thu Aug 31, 2023 9:23 pm It's very disappointing that so many have forgotten shakyamuni's teachings on the counterproductivity of ritualism. Empowerments are symbolic, meant to give a baseline understanding of a particular tantra. It's not some magical permission from a diety. It is the clarity, the awoken Buddha nature, required to understand and effectively accomplish what you practice. Claiming Empowerment is always required for a certain practice, full stop, is ignorance. They are not required, especially by beings of advanced karmic potential from birth. If you have the ability to complete the practice accurately, Empowerment is redundant. However, for the overwhelming majority of cases, the practice will not be successful without it. We must not regress to simply parrotting teachings we misunderstand, especially without firsthand experience.
Fortunately, there are beings of "advanced karmic potential" (like you) around here to set things straight.
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Kai lord »

If anyone views empowerment as simply some forns of permission to do tantric practices, only offer a baseline understanding, etc and therefore is redundant, he/she is simply advocating wrong views while ignoring what various tantras have to say on that subject.
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

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Kieltiel871 wrote: Thu Aug 31, 2023 9:23 pm It's very disappointing that so many have forgotten shakyamuni's teachings on the counterproductivity of ritualism. Empowerments are symbolic, meant to give a baseline understanding of a particular tantra. It's not some magical permission from a diety. It is the clarity, the awoken Buddha nature, required to understand and effectively accomplish what you practice. Claiming Empowerment is always required for a certain practice, full stop, is ignorance. They are not required, especially by beings of advanced karmic potential from birth. If you have the ability to complete the practice accurately, Empowerment is redundant. However, for the overwhelming majority of cases, the practice will not be successful without it. We must not regress to simply parrotting teachings we misunderstand, especially without firsthand experience.
Based on what? Your opinion? Sorry but precedent of traditio, scripture and explanations from teachers are more reliable than just having an opinion about how people should or shouldn’t be.
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Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Shaiksha »

Kieltiel871 wrote: Thu Aug 31, 2023 9:23 pm Empowerments are symbolic, meant to give a baseline understanding of a particular tantra.
If this is your understanding of the function of empowerment in Vajrayana, then sadly you have missed the mark completely. No wonder you think empowerments are just ritualism.
Kieltiel871 wrote: Thu Aug 31, 2023 9:23 pm It's very disappointing that so many have forgotten shakyamuni's teachings on the counterproductivity of ritualism.
Where did you get this understanding from?

Buddha never said that at all. It is the attachment to rites and rituals that must be abandoned. You can still do rites and rituals without having attachments to it.

Further, this is coming from sutra teachings and you conflate it with tantra teachings and method.
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