Practicing without empowerment

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Tenma
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Tenma »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:00 pm
Tenma wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:50 pm
Könchok Chödrak wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:16 pm

Not in the literal sense. But they appear to be reborn, don’t they? There is the Theravadin view by some that Gautama isn’t coming back at all, but the Mahayana view from what the Lotus Sutra (The White Lotus of the Good Dharma in Tibetan) has stated is that Buddha, even after Enlightenment, has been in this world for eons. He attained Enlightenment, which it is said in that Sutra, asamkhyas of kalpas ago as Bodhisattva Never Disparaging. The Buddha is in a true extinction, but He Emanates into this entire world from place to place, from time to time, to help guide sentient beings. He is not “born” neither does He “die”, but it appears that way, and often it is written about in such a way in the Suttas, Sutras, and commentaries and books. But what you have stated is correct. He is well gone. And we must do everything we can so that the Buddha will rest in Tranquility. Om. Namaste.
Hang on, what?
Everytime I learn something about this or that, I fail to understand what on earth Buddhism's purpose is. I thought enlightenment was to cease suffering and rebirth, am I wrong?
Correct, you are not wrong.


So if a person enters enlightenment, is it just mere "tranquil rest" or helping others?
Full awakening in Mahāyāna means eliminating the afflictive obscuration, which causes rebirth in the three realms, and eliminating the knowledge obscuration, which prevents one from knowing all paths.

Because of eliminating the first obscuration, one has power over birth, and can appear in any place to help sentient beings; because one has the eliminated the knowledge obscuration, one knows how to lead any sentient being with the appropriate path.
Isn't there a saying that goes that just as there are infinite sentient beings, there are infinite myriads of tathagatas (and possibly bodhisattvas)? If one has been eliminated of knowledge obscuration, can control birth alongside help sentient beings, how is it that suffering still exists in the world? Shouldn't all sentient beings have already been helped (unless that is, we are going by the concept that you cannot subtract infinity by infinity according to calculus)? Considering how effective "Om Mani Padme Hum," Lord Avalokiteshvara, and Kshitigarbha are in emptying numerous hells such as Avici, how is it that there are still beings in these hells? Are they constantly coming, are there more infinite hells, or what?

Reading the Karandavyuha Sutra, is Avalokiteshvara supposed to be some kind of infinite "God" or being of some sort, an omnipotent sort of being with many emanations and incarnations?
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Budai
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Budai »

A Buddha can decide to Emanate into this world, or “abide” in Mahaparinirvana or in the Pure Land, without entering the Saha world in any way, as simple of a concept as this is, it is simply explained that the Buddhas have this freedom.

:bow:

Om.

No one should fear becoming a Buddha because that means they can’t help people down here anymore, and no one should fear becoming a Buddha because that means they can still Emanate into this world and experience it’s hardships. The Buddhas can be free of this world or not, as they decide, or how they are needed, but their Sagacity beams the Dharma into every heart. Becoming a Buddha is the Best Option :heart: . And really, the Only Option to take for a fully Realized Life, as it is the goal, based on Buddha’s Teachings, it is just a matter of time of when we take that option, and we have to respect people’s personal dispositions, especially those who need a Skillful Means expounded. :anjali:

Just like Empowerments, they work in a way when people receive them when they are ready, and there are a lot of practices and Vows to keep, do, and devote oneself to even over many years, sometimes lifetimes. In the same way Buddhahood is sought after in Buddhism by most practitioners, but those who feel they are not ready need a provisional Vehicle stemming from the Ekayana (Single Vehicle) to continue their practice, so they maintain where they are, without regressing, and still practice. With that being said, all true Buddhism is a guide and step towards Enlightenment.
Last edited by Budai on Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:36 pm, edited 5 times in total.
Malcolm
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Malcolm »

Tenma wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:01 pm
Isn't there a saying that goes that just as there are infinite sentient beings, there are infinite myriads of tathagatas (and possibly bodhisattvas)? If one has been eliminated of knowledge obscuration, can control birth alongside help sentient beings, how is it that suffering still exists in the world?
Buddhas and bodhisattvas can only truly help beings through teaching the Dharma and entering them into the Dharma.

As the Buddha said:

Misdeeds cannot be washed away with water,
I cannot remove suffering with my hand,
nor can I hand out liberation,
but I can show the path.
Malcolm
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Malcolm »

Könchok Chödrak wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:11 pmbut those who feel they are not ready need a provisional Vehicle stemming from the Ekayana (Single Vehicle) to continue their practice...
What are you defining as a provisional vehicle?
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Budai
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Budai »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:59 pm
Könchok Chödrak wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:11 pmbut those who feel they are not ready need a provisional Vehicle stemming from the Ekayana (Single Vehicle) to continue their practice...
What are you defining as a provisional vehicle?
I said provisional Vehicle because I don’t want to limit the perception of the Dharma. We have Vajrayana, Theravada, and Mahayana, and they are all part of the Ekayana, and they are not ultimately provisional, they are the Ekayana, however, if we take from this part of the Lotus Sutra:
In the Buddha lands of the ten directions
there is only the Law of the one vehicle,
there are not two, there are not three,
except when the Buddha preaches so as an expedient means,
merely employing provisional names and terms
in order to conduct and guide living beings
and preach to them the Buddha wisdom.
The Buddhas appear in the world
solely for this one reason, which is true;
the other two are not the truth.
Never do they use a lesser vehicle
to save living beings and ferry them across.
The Buddha himself dwells in this Great Vehicle,
and adorned with the power of meditation and wisdom
that go with the Law he has attained,
he uses it to save living beings.
He himself testifies to the unsurpassed way,
the Great Vehicle, the Law in which all things are equal.
-Expedient Means Chapter.

It can be understood that though there is One Vehicle, it can be preached as multiple. I refer to a “provisional Vehicle” as something that can convert someone to Buddhahood by employing means for someone to stay in Buddhism, despite them not following a very direct Path, in order for them not to regress. I simply mean Skillful Means in a certain way. I do not mean that it is a lesser Vehicle or another Vehicle, I simply said it in a form of Expedient Means and I thank you for noticing that. What stems from the Great Vehicle is still the Great Vehicle, even though someone may call that aspect of it a “provisional Vehicle” for a specific means. It is “All One” in a sense, but to the point of discernment without differentiation.

For example in Empowerments, there are things we do, Vows for a day, instead of for life, these small things, they are ultimately also part of the Ekayana, but they stem from a more direct approach to the full practice. I am not negating as what “stems” from the Ekayana in this as the actual Ekayana, it’s all Ekayana, but whatever the Buddhas come up with to heal us and make us better Buddhists is great.

Also there are a plethora of other ways the Buddhas help the world outside of Traditional Schools and means that stem from the Ekayana, say, a Buddha Teaching police officers how to be safe in their job, the Buddha being a lieutenant, I would call this a provisional Vehicle of Buddhism in the police force, and Buddhism is still being practiced. But stemming from the Ekayana it would still be the Ekayana. This is in a matter of speaking so. What I meant as a “provisonal Vehicle” directly is whatever a Buddha comes up with to help others that stems from the Ekayana, this provisional Vehicle still ultimately being the Ekayana, but in that sense it being what is needed at the time in a provisional and helpful way.

:geek:
Last edited by Budai on Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:41 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Tenma
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Tenma »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:57 pm
Tenma wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:01 pm
Isn't there a saying that goes that just as there are infinite sentient beings, there are infinite myriads of tathagatas (and possibly bodhisattvas)? If one has been eliminated of knowledge obscuration, can control birth alongside help sentient beings, how is it that suffering still exists in the world?
Buddhas and bodhisattvas can only truly help beings through teaching the Dharma and entering them into the Dharma.

As the Buddha said:

Misdeeds cannot be washed away with water,
I cannot remove suffering with my hand,
nor can I hand out liberation,
but I can show the path.
What exactly is the point of Vajrasattva, Akshobhya, the 35 Buddhas, and other confessional practices if "misdeeds cannot be washed away with water"? (Yes, I get that the Buddha cannot give you enlightenment and you have to do that but what about these practices?)
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Malcolm
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Malcolm »

Tenma wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:10 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:57 pm
Tenma wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:01 pm
Isn't there a saying that goes that just as there are infinite sentient beings, there are infinite myriads of tathagatas (and possibly bodhisattvas)? If one has been eliminated of knowledge obscuration, can control birth alongside help sentient beings, how is it that suffering still exists in the world?
Buddhas and bodhisattvas can only truly help beings through teaching the Dharma and entering them into the Dharma.

As the Buddha said:

Misdeeds cannot be washed away with water,
I cannot remove suffering with my hand,
nor can I hand out liberation,
but I can show the path.
What exactly is the point of Vajrasattva, Akshobhya, the 35 Buddhas, and other confessional practices if "misdeeds cannot be washed away with water"? (Yes, I get that the Buddha cannot give you enlightenment and you have to do that but what about these practices?)
They are based on the idea in posadha, where you twice monthly confess your broken vows in front of the Sangha. They are methods of restoring one's vows.
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Könchok Chödrak wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:27 pm ...
In that sense, anything beyond abiding in the absolute nature of reality would be a provisional "vehicle." Where abiding in the ultimate might be something along the lines of Vimalakirti's silence... And any movement from that space of the absolute, using any words or anything at all, would be considered expedient means. This is pretty zen.
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Budai »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:34 pm
Könchok Chödrak wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:27 pm ...
In that sense, anything beyond abiding in the absolute nature of reality would be a provisional "vehicle." Where abiding in the ultimate might be something along the lines of Vimalakirti's silence... And any movement from that space of the absolute, using any words or anything at all, would be considered expedient means. This is pretty zen.
What I sense in all Empowerments that I have been a part of is this kind of Spirit, like they are coming from the Absolute, and they are trying to reach the Absolute to the practitioners for them to receive it. Once someone truly receives the exact essence of a full Empowerment, I believe they can become Empowered to the point of becoming a Buddha even! That is the goal. That is why Garchen Rinpoche says we can have a perfect practice all of our life even having received only one Empowerment, and it is as you say, because the Absolute has been Transmitted in such! I have been told by a friend that if one becomes a Buddha, they can do any practice they wish because they are ready then. But that is not practicing without Empowerment, because being a Buddha means we have the Ultimate Empowerment and the essence of all Empowerments. May we all get there. :anjali:

Om Mani Padme Hum.
Tenma
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Tenma »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:27 pm
Tenma wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:10 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:57 pm

Buddhas and bodhisattvas can only truly help beings through teaching the Dharma and entering them into the Dharma.

As the Buddha said:

Misdeeds cannot be washed away with water,
I cannot remove suffering with my hand,
nor can I hand out liberation,
but I can show the path.
What exactly is the point of Vajrasattva, Akshobhya, the 35 Buddhas, and other confessional practices if "misdeeds cannot be washed away with water"? (Yes, I get that the Buddha cannot give you enlightenment and you have to do that but what about these practices?)
They are based on the idea in posadha, where you twice monthly confess your broken vows in front of the Sangha. They are methods of restoring one's vows.
But it doesn't purify or get rid of negative karma as some say? What's the point of the sutric phrase "eons of negative karma will disappear" for reading a sutra or reciting a dharani/mantra if misdeeds cannot actually be pacified or as the following quote says, "washed away with water?"

By the way, could you please provide the source of your quote? Thank you!
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Soma999
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Soma999 »

They purify you, of course. Visualise they wash you in nectar water, and all obscurations, negativities... leave your body. See your body becoming transparent like crystal. Ask them to bring their blessings in your mental continuum.

They have the power to purify and bless.
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

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My understanding (via various teachings I've had on this) is that on a basic level the Four Opponent powers are what purify, understanding the mechanism of how is not that difficult, just read them:

http://www.dharmaling.org/en/glossary/5 ... ent-powers

I mean I don't know the technical explanation of how/why Vajrasattva is supposed to be the most powerful purification, it's probably a winds/channels HYT type thing not fit for public discussion. I just know that one of my own teachers said that anything can technically be a purification practice, and that the most important part of the practice was the Four Opponent Powers.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Malcolm
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Malcolm »

Tenma wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:25 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:27 pm
Tenma wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:10 pm

What exactly is the point of Vajrasattva, Akshobhya, the 35 Buddhas, and other confessional practices if "misdeeds cannot be washed away with water"? (Yes, I get that the Buddha cannot give you enlightenment and you have to do that but what about these practices?)
They are based on the idea in posadha, where you twice monthly confess your broken vows in front of the Sangha. They are methods of restoring one's vows.
But it doesn't purify or get rid of negative karma as some say? What's the point of the sutric phrase "eons of negative karma will disappear" for reading a sutra or reciting a dharani/mantra if misdeeds cannot actually be pacified or as the following quote says, "washed away with water?"

By the way, could you please provide the source of your quote? Thank you!
Hundreds of Aeons of karma is very tiny blip when consider how long one has been transmigrating in samsara.
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Giovanni »

Könchok Chödrak wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:46 pm
SilenceMonkey wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:34 pm
Könchok Chödrak wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:27 pm ...
In that sense, anything beyond abiding in the absolute nature of reality would be a provisional "vehicle." Where abiding in the ultimate might be something along the lines of Vimalakirti's silence... And any movement from that space of the absolute, using any words or anything at all, would be considered expedient means. This is pretty zen.
What I sense in all Empowerments that I have been a part of is this kind of Spirit, like they are coming from the Absolute, and they are trying to reach the Absolute to the practitioners for them to receive it. Once someone truly receives the exact essence of a full Empowerment, I believe they can become Empowered to the point of becoming a Buddha even! That is the goal. That is why Garchen Rinpoche says we can have a perfect practice all of our life even having received only one Empowerment, and it is as you say, because the Absolute has been Transmitted in such! I have been told by a friend that if one becomes a Buddha, they can do any practice they wish because they are ready then. But that is not practicing without Empowerment, because being a Buddha means we have the Ultimate Empowerment and the essence of all Empowerments. May we all get there. :anjali:

Om Mani Padme Hum.
There is no “Absolute” in the sense that you are using it. This is very basic Buddhadharma. You are using concepts that are alien to Buddhadharma. This is not good.
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Danny »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:44 pm
Tenma wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:25 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:27 pm

They are based on the idea in posadha, where you twice monthly confess your broken vows in front of the Sangha. They are methods of restoring one's vows.
But it doesn't purify or get rid of negative karma as some say? What's the point of the sutric phrase "eons of negative karma will disappear" for reading a sutra or reciting a dharani/mantra if misdeeds cannot actually be pacified or as the following quote says, "washed away with water?"

By the way, could you please provide the source of your quote? Thank you!
Hundreds of Aeons of karma is very tiny blip when consider how long one has been transmigrating in samsara.
This is interesting. I I recommend-
(Not Malcolm) but others to read Myriad Worlds, a bit abstract at first read, but as a person develops along paths, to re read this work and things start to become clear.
The cosmology will reveal itself dependent upon a persons stage of development.
It ranges from sutra, through to dzogchen.
It helped me during a period of constant, intense shitro to put things into clarity. And that means it’s function as literature on the right path is crucial.
Clarity, emptiness and experience.

Be well, don’t be a dick.
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Budai »

Giovanni wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:31 pm
Könchok Chödrak wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:46 pm
SilenceMonkey wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:34 pm

In that sense, anything beyond abiding in the absolute nature of reality would be a provisional "vehicle." Where abiding in the ultimate might be something along the lines of Vimalakirti's silence... And any movement from that space of the absolute, using any words or anything at all, would be considered expedient means. This is pretty zen.
What I sense in all Empowerments that I have been a part of is this kind of Spirit, like they are coming from the Absolute, and they are trying to reach the Absolute to the practitioners for them to receive it. Once someone truly receives the exact essence of a full Empowerment, I believe they can become Empowered to the point of becoming a Buddha even! That is the goal. That is why Garchen Rinpoche says we can have a perfect practice all of our life even having received only one Empowerment, and it is as you say, because the Absolute has been Transmitted in such! I have been told by a friend that if one becomes a Buddha, they can do any practice they wish because they are ready then. But that is not practicing without Empowerment, because being a Buddha means we have the Ultimate Empowerment and the essence of all Empowerments. May we all get there. :anjali:

Om Mani Padme Hum.
There is no “Absolute” in the sense that you are using it. This is very basic Buddhadharma. You are using concepts that are alien to Buddhadharma. This is not good.
Why isn’t it good and why are they alien concepts? Also have you met any friendly aliens? I would like to know.
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Giovanni »

With all good wishes you need to study some basic Buddhadharma. You would not then use terms like The Absolute which the Buddha explained carefully are not compatible with his Dharma.
We live in difficult and confusing times. There is a temptation to create our own dharma in place of the Buddhas Dharma. So we take some New Age sentiments and we mix with a little Nichiren and Pure Land then we read about Vajrayana so we take a Tibetan name. I did this too, although I have never had interest at all in Nicherin, but I mixed and wanted all to be happy.
In the end I knew I had to take a vehicle and practice it. And to remove my own interpretation to see what was being said really.
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Soma999 »

Words can be door to freedom, they can also make our own prison when we become too rigid with their use.
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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Giovanni wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:54 am With all good wishes you need to study some basic Buddhadharma. You would not then use terms like The Absolute which the Buddha explained carefully are not compatible with his Dharma.
We live in difficult and confusing times. There is a temptation to create our own dharma in place of the Buddhas Dharma. So we take some New Age sentiments and we mix with a little Nichiren and Pure Land then we read about Vajrayana so we take a Tibetan name. I did this too, although I have never had interest at all in Nicherin, but I mixed and wanted all to be happy.
In the end I knew I had to take a vehicle and practice it. And to remove my own interpretation to see what was being said really.
I get what you are saying here, but terms like "ultimate" or "absolute" are used plenty in Buddhist circles to describe and talk about one of the two truths. They aren't made into a monad or reified (or at least shouldn't be), but they are pretty common. A newer person might not even be able to make the distinction, it requires some study time, especially if one is not particularly inclined towards this kind of thought (I know I'm not).

Of course, even a Shentongpa might shy away from talking about something like "The Absolute", this is more about how words are used than the words themselves.

In general I agree, it is very easy in Buddhism to find all this cool, shiny stuff and to ignore the basics. The shiny stuff is (in my personal experience) incomprehensible without the basics.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Re: Practicing without empowerment

Post by karmanyingpo »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:45 pm
Giovanni wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:54 am With all good wishes you need to study some basic Buddhadharma. You would not then use terms like The Absolute which the Buddha explained carefully are not compatible with his Dharma.
We live in difficult and confusing times. There is a temptation to create our own dharma in place of the Buddhas Dharma. So we take some New Age sentiments and we mix with a little Nichiren and Pure Land then we read about Vajrayana so we take a Tibetan name. I did this too, although I have never had interest at all in Nicherin, but I mixed and wanted all to be happy.
In the end I knew I had to take a vehicle and practice it. And to remove my own interpretation to see what was being said really.
I get what you are saying here, but terms like "ultimate" or "absolute" are used plenty in Buddhist circles to describe and talk about one of the two truths. They aren't made into a monad or reified (or at least shouldn't be), but they are pretty common. A newer person might not even be able to make the distinction, it requires some study time, especially if one is not particularly inclined towards this kind of thought (I know I'm not).

Of course, even a Shentongpa might shy away from talking about something like "The Absolute", this is more about how words are used than the words themselves.

In general I agree, it is very easy in Buddhism to find all this cool, shiny stuff and to ignore the basics. The shiny stuff is (in my personal experience) incomprehensible without the basics.
Would it be correct to say that on the ultimate level we are enlightened, on the relative level we are not due to adventitious obscurations, stains, etc?
I know the basic point is true according to buddha Dharma but not sure if my use of relative and ultimate truths applied to it is appropriate. Just wanted to confirm since I find this a point that I frequently return to, in discussions on Dharma Wheel.

I suppose on the truly ultimate level there is no individual existing as an inherently existing independent thing to even speak of as being enlightened or not enlightened, and the whole notion or duality of enlightened/non enlightened isn't either... But are there levels or gradations that could allow us to say that something is less relative / more relative level?

KN
ma lu dzok pe san gye thop par shok!
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