How is shentong different from tirthika doctrine

Forum for discussion of Tibetan Buddhism. Questions specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
Posts: 7885
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: How is shentong different from tirthika doctrine

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

So if there was a difference in view, even if slight, would be nice if I could see that. Even if it’s just an intellectual indulgence.
Thanks
There’s two problems here. One is that I can’t remember where I read it. It was some Thrangu R. book. So I can’t give a citation.

The second is that I didn’t memorize exactly what he said. So I’d likely misrepresent it. In fact I’ll guarantee I’m screwing it up. So if you are willing factor that into your reading of this post, I’ll give it a shot.

It had to do with Shentong dismissing appearances as false and positing an Absolute beyond appearances. Then, once that Absolute has been ‘seen’, appearances can retroactively be understood as expressions of the Absolute.

Mahamudra, on the other hand, looks for the Ansolute in appearances from the start.

I believe they both end up at the same place, but how appearances are initially handled was the difference.

Anyway it’s in that ballpark but not a reliable presentation. Cone could probably have a more authoritative take on this. Maybe he will help out.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Danny
Posts: 1043
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:43 pm

Re: How is shentong different from tirthika doctrine

Post by Danny »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 1:48 am
So if there was a difference in view, even if slight, would be nice if I could see that. Even if it’s just an intellectual indulgence.
Thanks
There’s two problems here. One is that I can’t remember where I read it. It was some Thrangu R. book. So I can’t give a citation.

The second is that I didn’t memorize exactly what he said. So I’d likely misrepresent it. In fact I’ll guarantee I’m screwing it up. So if you are willing factor that into your reading of this post, I’ll give it a shot.

It had to do with Shentong dismissing appearances as false and positing an Absolute beyond appearances. Then, once that Absolute has been ‘seen’, appearances can retroactively be understood as expressions of the Absolute.

Mahamudra, on the other hand, looks for the Ansolute in appearances from the start.

I believe they both end up at the same place, but how appearances are initially handled was the difference.

Anyway it’s in that ballpark but not a reliable presentation. Cone could probably have a more authoritative take on this. Maybe he will help out.
Thanks for that. I’ll read it a few times, chew it over.
Cheers
Danny
Posts: 1043
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:43 pm

Re: How is shentong different from tirthika doctrine

Post by Danny »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 1:48 am

It had to do with Shentong dismissing appearances as false and positing an Absolute beyond appearances. Then, once that Absolute has been ‘seen’, appearances can retroactively be understood as expressions of the Absolute.

Mahamudra, on the other hand, looks for the Ansolute in appearances from the start.

I believe they both end up at the same place, but how appearances are initially handled was the difference.

So a few posts back I typed..

in mahamudra it’s called “one taste”, but in dzogchen It’s called simplicity, and centers around emptiness and experience, whether it is subtle, very subtle or incredibly subtle, it’s still subtle. shentong can get you to the stage of one taste,
Subtle here being the movement of thought. Mahamudra stays a mere mental projection, if emptiness and experience is being grasped onto.
Last edited by Danny on Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
Posts: 7885
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: How is shentong different from tirthika doctrine

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

So a few posts back I typed..

in mahamudra it’s called “one taste”, but in dzogchen It’s called simplicity, and centers around emptiness and experience, whether it is subtle, very subtle or incredibly subtle, it’s still subtle. shentong can get you to the stage of one taste,
Subtle here being the movement of thought.
No comment. Above my pay grade.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Danny
Posts: 1043
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:43 pm

Re: How is shentong different from tirthika doctrine

Post by Danny »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:19 am
So a few posts back I typed..

in mahamudra it’s called “one taste”, but in dzogchen It’s called simplicity, and centers around emptiness and experience, whether it is subtle, very subtle or incredibly subtle, it’s still subtle. shentong can get you to the stage of one taste,
Subtle here being the movement of thought.
No comment. Above my pay grade.
:lol:
And mine. Nice chatting with you SY
User avatar
tobes
Posts: 2194
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:02 am

Re: How is shentong different from tirthika doctrine

Post by tobes »

Danny wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:46 pm
tobes wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:29 pm I think we have to recognise that philosophy-metaphysics-arguments are only going to take us so far on this question.

In the end, we are comparing yogic realisation X with yogic realisation Y. In both traditions, this far exceeds what can be stated about it.

And who is in any kind of position to legitimately undertake such a comparison? Upon what ground does that comparison stand?

Certainly, no one lacking either realisation - this is like a monkey speculating on what it is like to be a nuclear physicist.

And I think it is also doubtful that X can make assertions about Y and vice versa, but perhaps it is possible.
Hi Tobes, there is a distinction. in mahamudra it’s called “one taste”, but in dzogchen It’s called simplicity, and centers around emptiness and experience, whether it is subtle, very subtle or incredibly subtle, it’s still subtle. shentong can get you to the stage of one taste, but it’s not the final destination in dzogchen.
There is a difference.
Sticking my neck out a lot, I’m no expert at all in these things...
So pinch of salt and all that.
The point is: you say there is a difference.

I've read many arguments which assert that there is a difference.

I might believe that there is a difference.

But these are just sayings, assertions and beliefs. None is satisfactory, according to mahamudra, dzogchen, shentong, rangtong, or advaita vedanta. All agree that the yogic realisation exceeds such conceptual or semantic or rational approaches.

So that leaves us the with basic possibility of getting the realisation oneself and then coming onto Dharmawheel to say 'it is like this, but not like that' or..........accepting we're basically pissing into the wind with such discussions.
Danny
Posts: 1043
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:43 pm

Re: How is shentong different from tirthika doctrine

Post by Danny »

tobes wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:50 am .....accepting we're basically pissing into the wind with such discussions.
Hi tobes,
I just pick out the things that jump out, I have a thing for excessive over quoting,
Well sure, but I wouldn’t say it’s pissing in the wind to make course corrections on the path of learning. But I get your point. Refining a view is part of the path, but from an ultimate sense all are “ views retaining assumptions”.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
Posts: 7885
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: How is shentong different from tirthika doctrine

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

...accepting we're basically pissing into the wind with such discussions.
On an abstract level yes, but on a more applicable level no. By that I mean the way you see a situation or problem predisposes how you approach a problem. Your attitudes and actions follow your understanding.

For instance; Malcolm and I have fundamentally different perspectives and ideas about Dharma. It follows that our attitudes, actions, and choices will automatically be different. Even if we were to both engage in the same activity, the way we go about it, the way we invest our energies in it, will be very different. Our “Paths” will be different.

So no, I don’t think either Malcolm or I are pissing into the wind. We are doing what is karmiclly appropriate for ourselves. And much of it starts with how we see things. That is important—for now. If and when either of us actually gains realization we can “get out of the boat”, and this all becomes just more blah blah blah.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Giovanni
Posts: 765
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:07 am

Re: How is shentong different from tirthika doctrine

Post by Giovanni »

You have different views on one subject. But maybe there are bigger differences between you and Loppon Malcolm I am thinking.
Donny
Posts: 108
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:53 pm

Re: How is shentong different from tirthika doctrine

Post by Donny »

I think we have to recognise that philosophy-metaphysics-arguments are only going to take us so far on this question.
True! But since a philosophic-metaphysical question was asked a philosophic-metaphysical answer seems appropriate.
In the end, we are comparing yogic realisation X with yogic realisation Y. In both traditions, this far exceeds what can be stated about it.
Not necessarily. When one understands these systems as descriptive philosophies, that are trying to describe something to the mind that is ultimetely beyond its reach - as your example with the monkey and the nuclear physicist seems to imply - then they can ultimately be seen as a futile endeavor.

But these systems can also be seen as curative means, that help the "unenlightened mind" to ease into letting a little bit more light in. Seen as such, they provide different paths for different needs. And in this case the comparison between these paths doesn't try to evaluate realizations but tries help a concrete individual to find a path that is suitable for his or her situation.

Edit: Sorry I dind't figure out yet, how to split up a quoted post so that it keeps showing the name of the poster.
"To the sharp weapons of the demons, you offered delicate flowers in return. When the enraged Devadatta pushed down a boulder to kill you, you practiced silence. Son of the Sakyas, incapable of casting even an angry glance at your enemy, what intelligent person would honor you as a friend for protection from the great enemy, fearful samsara?"
(Gendun Chopel)
Schrödinger’s Yidam
Posts: 7885
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: How is shentong different from tirthika doctrine

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Tobes. wrote:In the end, we are comparing yogic realisation X with yogic realisation Y. In both traditions, this far exceeds what can be stated about it.
Maybe not, but we can talk about the history and source of Shentong realization. It comes from the Kalachakra. Specifically as practiced in Eastern Tibet by what I will call proto-Jonangpas. Prior to his contact with these people Dolpopa was a Sakya scholar. He was brought around to their way of seeing things.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Danny
Posts: 1043
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:43 pm

Re: How is shentong different from tirthika doctrine

Post by Danny »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 1:21 pm
Maybe not, but we can talk about the history and source of Shentong realization. It comes from the Kalachakra. Specifically as practiced in Eastern Tibet by what I will call proto-Jonangpas. Prior to his contact with these people Dolpopa was a Sakya scholar. He was brought around to their way of seeing things.
When viewed as such, then I think it answers the original question posed. Human wish fulfillment of an eternal all seeing goodness that pervades society. Interesting.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
Posts: 7885
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: How is shentong different from tirthika doctrine

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Human wish fulfillment of an eternal all seeing goodness that pervades society.
What you’re calling wish fulfillment I’m going to call unawareness having an immature initial impulse towards Dharma. It might take many lifetimes to mature further, but that doesn’t mean it is entirely absent.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: How is shentong different from tirthika doctrine

Post by Malcolm »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 1:21 pm Maybe not, but we can talk about the history and source of Shentong realization. It comes from the Kalachakra. Specifically as practiced in Eastern Tibet
Yumo Mikyod Dorje was from the region of Kailash, not Eastern Tibet.

https://treasuryoflives.org/biographies ... TBRC_P2589:
The Jonang tradition would ultimately place Yumo as a key link in the Tibetan Kālacakra lineage; Tāranātha would cite him as an advocate of their distinctive position of "other-emptiness" (gzhan stong) in a tantric context.
Perhaps you meant as practiced today in the Amdo region, where the Jonang tradition survived.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: How is shentong different from tirthika doctrine

Post by Malcolm »

tobes wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:50 am
But these are just sayings, assertions and beliefs. None is satisfactory, according to mahamudra, dzogchen, shentong, rangtong, or advaita vedanta. All agree that the yogic realisation exceeds such conceptual or semantic or rational approaches.

So that leaves us the with basic possibility of getting the realisation oneself and then coming onto Dharmawheel to say 'it is like this, but not like that' or..........accepting we're basically pissing into the wind with such discussions.
Advaita is strictly rational. Advaitans characteristically deride yoga. It is the highest perspective in Indian philosophy. Some people might argue that Trika is, but Trika is realist, even if they are a nondualist school like Advaita.

Madhyamaka, no matter which variety one subscribes, is strictly based on intellectual analysis as well.

It is only Vajrayāna that the example/ultimate wisdom pointed out/realized at the time of empowerment takes precedence over intellectual analysis. When this is realized, it is called mahāmudra or dzogchen. When one is a Vajrayāna practitioner, it does not matter much which intellectual view one subscribes to, whether Madhyamaka or Yogacāra, since the view at the time of the empowerment experienced is a correct, experiential Madhyamaka view. By practicing Vajrayāna practices such as the two stages, and so on, one cultivates this experiential view for a long while, eventually leading its realization.
User avatar
tobes
Posts: 2194
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:02 am

Re: How is shentong different from tirthika doctrine

Post by tobes »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:40 pm
tobes wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:50 am
But these are just sayings, assertions and beliefs. None is satisfactory, according to mahamudra, dzogchen, shentong, rangtong, or advaita vedanta. All agree that the yogic realisation exceeds such conceptual or semantic or rational approaches.

So that leaves us the with basic possibility of getting the realisation oneself and then coming onto Dharmawheel to say 'it is like this, but not like that' or..........accepting we're basically pissing into the wind with such discussions.
Advaita is strictly rational. Advaitans characteristically deride yoga. It is the highest perspective in Indian philosophy. Some people might argue that Trika is, but Trika is realist, even if they are a nondualist school like Advaita.

Madhyamaka, no matter which variety one subscribes, is strictly based on intellectual analysis as well.

It is only Vajrayāna that the example/ultimate wisdom pointed out/realized at the time of empowerment takes precedence over intellectual analysis. When this is realized, it is called mahāmudra or dzogchen. When one is a Vajrayāna practitioner, it does not matter much which intellectual view one subscribes to, whether Madhyamaka or Yogacāra, since the view at the time of the empowerment experienced is a correct, experiential Madhyamaka view. By practicing Vajrayāna practices such as the two stages, and so on, one cultivates this experiential view for a long while, eventually leading its realization.
Reason in method does not imply reason in fruit - is what I am saying.

What follows is that the context for reason is purely in the soteriological efforts of each particular practitioner. Part of this might entail dialectical engagement/critique of other approaches, in fact it probably does by necessity. So in this sense, threads like this are useful.

But there are only useful pragmatically to this end. They simply don't/can't tell us what the respective realisations are, and, whether they are similar, different or otherwise.

My worry here is in the irresistible urge to denigrate paths which we ourselves have not practiced, have certainly not obtained any fruition, and are therefore not in a sound position to critique.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: How is shentong different from tirthika doctrine

Post by Malcolm »

tobes wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:04 am
My worry here is in the irresistible urge to denigrate paths which we ourselves have not practiced, have certainly not obtained any fruition, and are therefore not in a sound position to critique.
There are only two kinds of paths— those based on mind and those based on gnosis. The latter are always superior to the former.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
Posts: 7885
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: How is shentong different from tirthika doctrine

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

There’s two problems here. One is that I can’t remember where I read it. It was some Thrangu R. book. So I can’t give a citation.

The second is that I didn’t memorize exactly what he said. So I’d likely misrepresent it. In fact I’ll guarantee I’m screwing it up. So if you are willing factor that into your reading of this post, I’ll give it a shot.
I did not find the original citation, but I did find the same general point attributed to Thrangu R. elsewhere.
Brunnhölzl “When the Clouds Part” p.131:
...Mathes reports Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche’s oral explanation of the difference between Shentong and Mahamudra as follows. During analysis, the adventitious stains and buddha nature are necessarily differentiated since Buddha nature is empty of what does not belong to it (that is, it is shentong—“empty of other”). But when buddha nature is directly realized in Mahamudra, there is no longer any difference between it and the adventitious stains or seeming reality.
The other place I saw this was a little more detailed, but at least now I have a citation to show I didn’t make it up.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Schrödinger’s Yidam
Posts: 7885
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: How is shentong different from tirthika doctrine

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

ibid
Thus, in this context, one needs to keep in mind that since all phenomena of seeming reality are not really existent in the first place (and Dolpopa and Mahamudra agree on this), there is always only one ultimately real phenomenon to begin with, which is buddha nature or mind’s natural luminosity. Consequently, in fact, there is only a single actual reality, and therefore any presentation or separation of two realities is necessarily of expedient meaning.
This was the next paragraph from my post immediately above. I include that here because Malcolm and JD had unanswered posts from a thread now closed.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 17089
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: How is shentong different from tirthika doctrine

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 6:56 am ibid
Thus, in this context, one needs to keep in mind that since all phenomena of seeming reality are not really existent in the first place (and Dolpopa and Mahamudra agree on this), there is always only one ultimately real phenomenon to begin with, which is buddha nature or mind’s natural luminosity. Consequently, in fact, there is only a single actual reality, and therefore any presentation or separation of two realities is necessarily of expedient meaning.
This was the next paragraph from my post immediately above. I include that here because Malcolm and JD had unanswered posts from a thread now closed.
This doesn't really address anything you mentioned earlier. This is not quite The Monad or "the One", regardless of it's status otherwise. The latter part is a statement that would hold true for -any- presentation of the two truths, and the rest is just standard Shentong, as I read it.

And again, you stated that there was a claim that samsara arises from the Dharmakaya somehow, I don't see that here either, not that I expect to.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
Locked

Return to “Tibetan Buddhism”