signs and provocations comprendium

Forum for discussion of Tibetan Buddhism. Questions specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
Post Reply
javier.espinoza.t
Posts: 2008
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:29 am

signs and provocations comprendium

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

Hi,

Is there a kind of comprendium of signs and provocations? maybe a khenpo's work? it hink this would ve very very useful to have
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 4550
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: signs and provocations comprendium

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

javier.espinoza.t wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:19 pm Hi,

Is there a kind of comprendium of signs and provocations? maybe a khenpo's work? it hink this would ve very very useful to have
You might get some replies if you explain what you are asking.

A ‘provocation’ usually refers to causing a negative reaction, such as provoking a riot, or bothering an animal until it attacks you.

A ‘sign’ can refer to almost anything.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook develops outward insight.
javier.espinoza.t
Posts: 2008
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:29 am

Re: signs and provocations comprendium

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 12:55 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:19 pm Hi,

Is there a kind of comprendium of signs and provocations? maybe a khenpo's work? it hink this would ve very very useful to have
You might get some replies if you explain what you are asking.

A ‘provocation’ usually refers to causing a negative reaction, such as provoking a riot, or bothering an animal until it attacks you.

A ‘sign’ can refer to almost anything.
things like:

dreaming with fat angry woman is sign of presence of the mamo class

dreaming with monkeys and feel nervous is sign of the gyalpo class

dreming with teet falling is sign that one's arrogance is considerably diminishing

seing a light that resembles that reflected by a mirror is sign of gyalpo presence

hearing the sthout of a raksha lokapala is sign of inminent rain

things like that. and

paralisis is provocation of this, poverty of that, warfare, etc. etc.
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 4550
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: signs and provocations comprendium

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

It wasn’t clear that you were referring to dreams.

I don’t know that there is any definitive list of dream interpretations by any reputable Buddhist teachers or lamas.

I once asked a lama, one of my teachers, about a very intense dream I had. It involved a close friend who had died, and the person had appeared to me in an extremely vivid dream, like nothing I had ever dreamed before.

The lama told me that in a sense, we are already in a dream. That’s the unawakened state of samsaric existence.
“So”, he said, “when you dream, that’s really just a dream within a dream”.
In other words, one illusion inside of another.

But, it was a good answer for me at that time. When I had the same dream situation the next night, I was able to confront the person in the dream, my deceased friend, who had appeared in my dream the night before. This revealed that the person in the dream was not real. As soon as I confronted the dream image person, they disappeared. At that moment, I immediate woke up from the dream.

The point I am making is that what occurs to one person in a dream might have a very different meaning in the dream of someone else. If you dream that your teeth are falling out, it might suggest that your arrogance is diminishing, but it could also mean that you have been lying to people and you are having an inner conflict. If might mean that you are attached to your own youthful appearance and are afraid of getting old. It can mean any of a million things.

This is really the problem with any kind of signs, visions, premonitions, and so on. You might have a vision of something, or a dream, and the image or even the feeling of that thing might be very clear. But making an accurate assumption about what the meaning implies is very different.

I knew someone who could tell things about another person whom they had never met, just from holding something written by that person. This wasn’t handwriting analysis. They did not even have to look at the writing. This person would get a very strong impression in their mind about some specific detail. For example, when given a matchbook on which had been written a phone number, this person said, “I keep getting a strong impression about pit bulls (a kind of dog). There was no interpretation of that mental impression, just the feeling itself.
As it turned out, the person who had written their phone number on the matchbook raised pit bull dogs.

However, on another occasion, the person had been handed a letter written by someone’s friend. He said almost immediately, “this person (the unknown writer of the letter) likes to travel a lot. They always think about the next place where they want to go”.
In a sense, this was true. But only a little bit. The writer of the letter probably did have a strong desire to travel. But the writer, in fact, was serving a lifetime sentence in prison. They never travelled anywhere and would never travel again. But of course, they always wished they were free.

So, the point here is that any object in a dream can mean many different things, depending on the person who is dreaming of that object. And how an image or a feeling is interpreted might be accurate or might be totally wrong.

There are books with lists of images appearing in dreams (I don’t know of any by lamas) and what they might mean. But this is so highly subjective, that any absolute definitive meaning, the way that a dictionary defines a word, would be meaningless.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook develops outward insight.
javier.espinoza.t
Posts: 2008
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:29 am

Re: signs and provocations comprendium

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

i didn't meant that only dreams are taken in account. can be plain sight, or a kind of vision., etc. dreams are maybe the most frequent but only one the possibilities.

there are signs that are common to everyone with a ground buddhadharma knowledge, like when a master manifests tugdam, it ain't a dream and it is a specific sign.
pemachophel
Posts: 1747
Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 9:19 pm
Location: Lafayette, CO

Re: signs and provocations comprendium

Post by pemachophel »

No such compendium that I know of. There are texts that describe meanings of dreams. There are also texts which describe divination results. There are also signs described in many sadhana texts, but these tend to be specific to the associated sadhana. The third-best place to find out what a sign means is from one's Guru. The second-best place is from one's Protector or Guardian, such as Dorje Yudronma or Tsheringma. The number one best place is to gain siddhi so that you "know everything that is just as it is." This can be attained through various sadhanas. (Actually, all three of these are the Guru, but that's another discussion.)
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
User avatar
Könchok Thrinley
Former staff member
Posts: 2468
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:18 am

Re: signs and provocations comprendium

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

pemachophel wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 3:46 pm No such compendium that I know of. There are texts that describe meanings of dreams. There are also texts which describe divination results. There are also signs described in many sadhana texts, but these tend to be specific to the associated sadhana. The third-best place to find out what a sign means is from one's Guru. The second-best place is from one's Protector or Guardian, such as Dorje Yudronma or Tsheringma. The number one best place is to gain siddhi so that you "know everything that is just as it is." This can be attained through various sadhanas. (Actually, all three of these are the Guru, but that's another discussion.)
Do you know any names of texts that deal with dreams? And do you know if they have been translated into english?
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

Formerly known as Miroku.
javier.espinoza.t
Posts: 2008
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:29 am

Re: signs and provocations comprendium

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

pemachophel wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 3:46 pm No such compendium that I know of. There are texts that describe meanings of dreams. There are also texts which describe divination results. There are also signs described in many sadhana texts, but these tend to be specific to the associated sadhana. The third-best place to find out what a sign means is from one's Guru. The second-best place is from one's Protector or Guardian, such as Dorje Yudronma or Tsheringma. The number one best place is to gain siddhi so that you "know everything that is just as it is." This can be attained through various sadhanas. (Actually, all three of these are the Guru, but that's another discussion.)
i see, thank you Lama Pema. Maybe some scholar will be interested in compiling such work one day, it would be really useful as handbook.
pemachophel
Posts: 1747
Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2010 9:19 pm
Location: Lafayette, CO

Re: signs and provocations comprendium

Post by pemachophel »

Javier,

Signs can be tricky. They may not mean what one thinks they mean. They also may not be coming from there white side. That's why it's best to rely on one's Guru.

As a corollary of that, it is essential to have a living Guru until one has unified one's own mind and the Guru's wisdom mind. I worry about so many people these days trying to practice Tibetan Buddhism through books and Zoom without an actual living Guru. However, this is a topic for a different thread.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
YesheD.
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:14 am

Re: signs and provocations comprendium

Post by YesheD. »

pemachophel wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:01 pm Javier,

Signs can be tricky. They may not mean what one thinks they mean. They also may not be coming from there white side. That's why it's best to rely on one's Guru.

As a corollary of that, it is essential to have a living Guru until one has unified one's own mind and the Guru's wisdom mind. I worry about so many people these days trying to practice Tibetan Buddhism through books and Zoom without an actual living Guru. However, this is a topic for a different thread.
This cant be emphasised enough. :thumbsup: I know that telling people to check things with their teacher is not popular. But it is solid advice..It’s very hard to be objective about our experiences.
javier.espinoza.t
Posts: 2008
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:29 am

Re: signs and provocations comprendium

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

pemachophel wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:01 pm Javier,

Signs can be tricky. They may not mean what one thinks they mean. They also may not be coming from there white side. That's why it's best to rely on one's Guru.

As a corollary of that, it is essential to have a living Guru until one has unified one's own mind and the Guru's wisdom mind. I worry about so many people these days trying to practice Tibetan Buddhism through books and Zoom without an actual living Guru. However, this is a topic for a different thread.
i understand.

it depends on the student. certainly, before core teaching is comprehended, books may become more an obstacle than a benefit.
User avatar
Mantrik
Former staff member
Posts: 2240
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:55 pm
Contact:

Re: signs and provocations comprendium

Post by Mantrik »

javier.espinoza.t wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:21 pm
pemachophel wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:01 pm Javier,

Signs can be tricky. They may not mean what one thinks they mean. They also may not be coming from there white side. That's why it's best to rely on one's Guru.

As a corollary of that, it is essential to have a living Guru until one has unified one's own mind and the Guru's wisdom mind. I worry about so many people these days trying to practice Tibetan Buddhism through books and Zoom without an actual living Guru. However, this is a topic for a different thread.
i understand.

it depends on the student. certainly, before core teaching is comprehended, books may become more an obstacle than a benefit.
ChNN mentions some provocations identified with different classes of spirits - (Red) Garuda Practice I think, and also in the mantras for the Dark Garuda.
There may well be lists related to provocations by spirit class, so search by class names, maybe?
http://www.khyung.com ཁྲོཾ

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
javier.espinoza.t
Posts: 2008
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:29 am

Re: signs and provocations comprendium

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

Mantrik wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 11:16 pm ChNN mentions some provocations identified with different classes of spirits - (Red) Garuda Practice I think, and also in the mantras for the Dark Garuda.
There may well be lists related to provocations by spirit class, so search by class names, maybe?
yeah, i remember the maestro said that he himself researched and found things along a cycle called kagyed, and medicine tantras i believe, and also the 8 classes (classification) we use comes from mingyur dorje's materials, and so on.

i thought maybe someone compiled this information. we see this is transvesal, not an individual -biased- interpretation of signs and provocations.
humble.student
Posts: 308
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2015 1:35 pm

Re: signs and provocations comprendium

Post by humble.student »

Könchok Thrinley wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 5:18 pm
Do you know any names of texts that deal with dreams? And do you know if they have been translated into english?
http://shangshung.org/store/index.php?m ... cts_id=191
Charlie123
Posts: 349
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:10 pm

Re: signs and provocations comprendium

Post by Charlie123 »

humble.student wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:19 am
Könchok Thrinley wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 5:18 pm
Do you know any names of texts that deal with dreams? And do you know if they have been translated into english?
http://shangshung.org/store/index.php?m ... cts_id=191
Dr. Nida Chenagtsang also published a book on dream analysis. It is not exhaustive, but it is well-written and informative. The use of dream analysis in diagnosing disease is very interesting.
javier.espinoza.t
Posts: 2008
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:29 am

Re: signs and provocations comprendium

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

Charlie123 wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:41 am
humble.student wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:19 am
Könchok Thrinley wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 5:18 pm
Do you know any names of texts that deal with dreams? And do you know if they have been translated into english?
http://shangshung.org/store/index.php?m ... cts_id=191
Dr. Nida Chenagtsang also published a book on dream analysis. It is not exhaustive, but it is well-written and informative. The use of dream analysis in diagnosing disease is very interesting.
https://www.bookdepository.com/Tibetan- ... 020&sr=1-1

this?
Charlie123
Posts: 349
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:10 pm

Re: signs and provocations comprendium

Post by Charlie123 »

javier.espinoza.t wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:30 am
Charlie123 wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:41 am
Dr. Nida Chenagtsang also published a book on dream analysis. It is not exhaustive, but it is well-written and informative. The use of dream analysis in diagnosing disease is very interesting.
https://www.bookdepository.com/Tibetan- ... 020&sr=1-1

this?
That is the one. Most of the content is general, but there is a section that includes practices which require transmission.
Post Reply

Return to “Tibetan Buddhism”