Pure view without being Panglossian.

Forum for discussion of Tibetan Buddhism. Questions specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
Malcolm
Posts: 32808
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Pure view without being Panglossian.

Post by Malcolm »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:29 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:23 pm
Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:03 am
Enlightened beings and sentient beings may look the same, but they are as different as caterpillars and butterflies.
No, this is false. There is no substantial difference between Buddhas and sentient beings. We don’t become Buddhas, we already are Buddhas—at least, that’s what the Hevajra and other tantras state.
That is true if you are speaking n the sense of
their primordial essence both being Buddha Nature. Of course.

However if you are speaking about how they manifest as appearances, there’s all the difference in the world. One manifests as limitations, suffering, defilements, and delusions. The other manifests as freedoms, peace, and spontaneously beneficial activity.
There is no substantial difference, the difference is solely the presence or absence of afflictions, and afflictions are not something substantial to be removed.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
Posts: 7199
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Pure view without being Panglossian.

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:00 pm
Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:29 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:23 pm

No, this is false. There is no substantial difference between Buddhas and sentient beings. We don’t become Buddhas, we already are Buddhas—at least, that’s what the Hevajra and other tantras state.
That is true if you are speaking n the sense of
their primordial essence both being Buddha Nature. Of course.

However if you are speaking about how they manifest as appearances, there’s all the difference in the world. One manifests as limitations, suffering, defilements, and delusions. The other manifests as freedoms, peace, and spontaneously beneficial activity.
There is no substantial difference, the difference is solely the presence or absence of afflictions, and afflictions are not something substantial to be removed.
There no substantial difference if you’re using the word “substantial” to literally mean “substance”, as in solid matter. So I agree that afflictions are not like physical tumors to be physically extracted through surgery.

So perhaps better to say “effectively”?
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 4188
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Pure view without being Panglossian.

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

javier.espinoza.t wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:43 pm Panglossian just outsmarted me, i had to google it :rolling:
Yes. I too learned a new word today.
I thought it had to do with turning into a pangolin.
I guess I’ve been watching too many werewolf movies this week!
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook develops outward insight.
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 4188
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Pure view without being Panglossian.

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

In the televised series, The Power of Myth with Joseph Campbell, he makes a very interesting statement about the symbolism in Christianity of the Lion lying down with the lamb, and how you always see pictures of the two animals lounging together, which he says misses the point: ”The lion eats the lamb... but it’s okay!” he says. That’s the harmony, the balance. I guess that always stuck with me, because to me that sort of mirrors the view that everything is a Buddha-field.

It’s not a matter of negating, of ignoring, or denying that there are problems in the world that need to be solved. Within the relative context of our experience as sentient beings, there’s a lot of work to do. No doubt about that.

Rather, it encompasses the whole of it, like seeing Earth from outer space. Optimism/pessimism is still dualistic thinking. What the dharma teachings talk about goes beyond that duality altogether. It’s the difference between having good dreams or bad dreams shild sleeping, and actually waking up from your slumber.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook develops outward insight.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
Posts: 7199
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Pure view without being Panglossian.

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

In Candide Voltaire was making fun of an optimistic philosophy of his day. The character Pangloss represents those ideas. The ensemble of his characters undergo horrific suffering of outlandish proportions. And then at the end he gives them a “happy ending”. However the complaint then is, “This is boring. Life was better when we were getting chopped up by swords.” (By memory, not exact.)

To me the ending of Candide has always been my symbol for what the “suffering of change” means. Even a good outcome sucks after a while. It was in my head years before I ever encountered Buddhism.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
User avatar
PeterC
Posts: 2735
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:38 pm

Re: Pure view without being Panglossian.

Post by PeterC »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:57 pm In Candide Voltaire was making fun of an optimistic philosophy of his day. The character Pangloss represents those ideas. The ensemble of his characters undergo horrific suffering of outlandish proportions. And then at the end he gives them a “happy ending”. However the complaint then is, “This is boring. Life was better when we were getting chopped up by swords.” (By memory, not exact.)

To me the ending of Candide has always been my symbol for what the “suffering of change” means. Even a good outcome sucks after a while. It was in my head years before I ever encountered Buddhism.
I thought he gave the last word to Candide, who said something to the effect that they should just dedicate themselves to a simple life of work (and by implication abandon intellectual pretensions). I didn’t read it as the suffering of change - but it’s been a while, I should re-read it. Voltaire stood out in an age of very clever writers - I don’t think there’s been a French writer even close to him since.
User avatar
PeterC
Posts: 2735
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:38 pm

Re: Pure view without being Panglossian.

Post by PeterC »

But more relevant than Voltaire:
We are pleased to announce that our KNSL Teaching Room series will continue with teachings on “The Two Truths” with Khenpo Pema Namgyal.

At the express wish of Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche, the esteemed Khenpos and Lopons from Ka-Nying Shedrub Ling will provide thorough and authentic Dharma teachings on the foundational principles of Buddhist philosophy and practice over the coming months. All of these teachings will take place online in the KNSL Teaching Room at DharmaSun.org
Khenpo Pema Namgyal
We are pleased to announce that this series will begin with teachings on the “The Two Truths” with Khenpo Pema Namgyal.

These teachings will elucidate the very heart of the unique Buddhist view.

The program will include live-streamed primary teachings and Q&A sessions with Khenpo Pema Namgyal. If you cannot listen to the teachings live, recordings will be made available for a limited time to all registered participants on DharmaSun.

Translations:
English, Chinese, German, Nepali, Spanish, Russian, and Ukrainian.

Registration:
Free.

Live Main Teachings:
Monday, October 26th
Tuesday, October 27th

Live Q&A Sessions:
Wednesday, October 28th

Recordings of Teachings and Q&A available:
October 27th - November 19th

Information and Registration:
For more information and to register for teachings on “The Two Truths” please visit DharmaSun.org/seminar

If you have registered for the previous teachings in the KNSL Teaching Room, you are already registered to receive these teachings. You will have full access to the recordings of previous and future teachings in the series.

If you have any questions, please email [email protected]
Schrödinger’s Yidam
Posts: 7199
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Pure view without being Panglossian.

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

In short, the pedestrian mind is capable of seeing the horrors of the world. There’s no spinning it as anything other than the 1st Noble Truth. If the pedestrian mind is correct, and it sees things as they actually are, then everything else is intellectual masturbation. Maybe it’s interesting, but moot.

However if it is true that the pedestrian mind has veils that hide things as they actually are, and if there is a way to remove those veils, then it sees things incorrectly. And reports from people that have seen things more clearly will conflict with what seems obvious, certain, and indisputable on the surface.

“Self empty”? “Illusory”? “Perfect just as it is”? “Everything is good”? I don’t see things that way, But I’m willing to be open to the idea that it is my vision that is fundamentally in error.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Malcolm
Posts: 32808
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Pure view without being Panglossian.

Post by Malcolm »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 4:37 pm In short, the pedestrian mind is capable of seeing the horrors of the world. There’s no spinning it as anything other than the 1st Noble Truth. If the pedestrian mind is correct, and it sees things as they actually are, then everything else is intellectual masturbation. Maybe it’s interesting, but moot.

However if it is true that the pedestrian mind has veils that hide things as they actually are, and if there is a way to remove those veils, then it sees things incorrectly. And reports from people that have seen things more clearly will conflict with what seems obvious, certain, and indisputable on the surface.

“Self empty”? “Illusory”? “Perfect just as it is”? “Everything is good”? I don’t see things that way, But I’m willing to be open to the idea that it is my vision that is fundamentally in error.
The pedestrian mind sees suffering as happiness, the impermanent as permanent, and not self as self. Aryas perceive things as they are. This meaning is also true even in mahamudra and dzogchen.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
Posts: 7199
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Pure view without being Panglossian.

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

As quoted in my signature,

H.H. Karmapa 17:
HHK17 wrote:The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now.
2/4/18 @NYC

I think I’ll go with that.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Post Reply

Return to “Tibetan Buddhism”