Enlightenment in a Pure Land

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AmidaB
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Re: Enlightenment in a Pure Land

Post by AmidaB »

Aryjna wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:51 pm
AmidaB wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:25 pm Thanks, very interesting. Any clue why the 'OM MANI PADME HUM' is better facilitator to Guru Rinpoche's pure land than his own mantra?
Anyway: 'OM A HUM VAJRA GURU PADMA SIDDHI HUM' :thumbsup:
It is often considered that Amitabha, Avalokiteshvara, and Padmasambhava are the three kayas, so not different, in that sense it is not strange that it is equally effective to use any of their practices.
Malcolm wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:40 pm There only apparition birth there, and no human women, And, there is in fact no Vajrayana practice in this buddhafield, as opposed to say, Zandok Palri.

There is a Dzogchen understanding of the buddhafields, but it is quite different than Chagmey’s aspiration.
What I find a bit difficult is to reconcile the fact that many Vajrayana masters (apparently including Machig Labdron), suggest going there, if it is really the case that you are cut off from Vajrayana.

Using "reason", it is not difficult to reconcile whatever possible defects, for example you can say that since you can easily travel to other buddhafields at will from Sukhavati, then you can practice tantra there, and as such there is no limitation. However, putting things together using reasoning in this way is not really the same as having an authoritative explanation on the matter.
Compared to Sukhavati how hard is to be born in Guru Rinpoche's pure land? Is there some kind of 'list' or 'lists' for the needed qualifications to be born in Zangdokpalri? Is getting enlightened possible there?
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Aryjna
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Re: Enlightenment in a Pure Land

Post by Aryjna »

AmidaB wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 2:30 pm
Aryjna wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:51 pm
AmidaB wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:25 pm Thanks, very interesting. Any clue why the 'OM MANI PADME HUM' is better facilitator to Guru Rinpoche's pure land than his own mantra?
Anyway: 'OM A HUM VAJRA GURU PADMA SIDDHI HUM' :thumbsup:
It is often considered that Amitabha, Avalokiteshvara, and Padmasambhava are the three kayas, so not different, in that sense it is not strange that it is equally effective to use any of their practices.
Malcolm wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:40 pm There only apparition birth there, and no human women, And, there is in fact no Vajrayana practice in this buddhafield, as opposed to say, Zandok Palri.

There is a Dzogchen understanding of the buddhafields, but it is quite different than Chagmey’s aspiration.
What I find a bit difficult is to reconcile the fact that many Vajrayana masters (apparently including Machig Labdron), suggest going there, if it is really the case that you are cut off from Vajrayana.

Using "reason", it is not difficult to reconcile whatever possible defects, for example you can say that since you can easily travel to other buddhafields at will from Sukhavati, then you can practice tantra there, and as such there is no limitation. However, putting things together using reasoning in this way is not really the same as having an authoritative explanation on the matter.
Compared to Sukhavati how hard is to be born in Guru Rinpoche's pure land? Is there some kind of 'list' or 'lists' for the needed qualifications to be born in Zangdokpalri? Is getting enlightened possible there?
There are many monlam, I don't remember ever reading an explicit list of requirements.
Malcolm
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Re: Enlightenment in a Pure Land

Post by Malcolm »

Aryjna wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 2:25 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:26 pm
Aryjna wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:51 pm What I find a bit difficult is to reconcile the fact that many Vajrayana masters (apparently including Machig Labdron), suggest going there, if it is really the case that you are cut off from Vajrayana.
You don’t need it in Sukhavati.
I suppose so. It seems a bit strange though, when they could suggest Zangdokpalri instead.
Different strokes...
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
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Losal Samten
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Re: Enlightenment in a Pure Land

Post by Losal Samten »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:40 pmThere is only apparition birth there, and no human women, And, there is in fact no Vajrayana practice in this buddhafield, as opposed to say, Zandok Palri.
There are Vajrayana initiations given there, for example the Nyingma/Drikung Great Phowa which was given directly from Amitabha there, and the Sri Mahadevi lower tantra was preached there also.

https://read.84000.co/translation/UT22084-061-013.html
Lacking mindfulness, we commit every wrong. - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔
ཨོཾ་ཧ་ནུ་པྷ་ཤ་བྷ་ར་ཧེ་ཡེ་སྭཱ་ཧཱ།།
ཨཱོཾ་མ་ཏྲི་མུ་ཡེ་སལེ་འདུ།།
Malcolm
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Re: Enlightenment in a Pure Land

Post by Malcolm »

Losal Samten wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 1:18 am
Malcolm wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:40 pmThere is only apparition birth there, and no human women, And, there is in fact no Vajrayana practice in this buddhafield, as opposed to say, Zandok Palri.
There are Vajrayana initiations given there, for example the Nyingma/Drikung Great Phowa which was given directly from Amitabha there, and the Sri Mahadevi lower tantra was preached there also.

https://read.84000.co/translation/UT22084-061-013.html
Dharani texts are not tantras. Pure vision teachings on transference received here do not mean such teachings are actually taught there, what would be the point?
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
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Seeker12
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Re: Enlightenment in a Pure Land

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Aryjna wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 2:25 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:26 pm

You don’t need it in Sukhavati.
I suppose so. It seems a bit strange though, when they could suggest Zangdokpalri instead.
You can travel to any pure land you want from Sukhavati. Could go to Guru Rinpoche’s if you want.
I heard this story about a fish. He swims up to an older fish and says: “I’m trying to find this thing they call the ocean.” “The ocean?” the older fish says, “that’s what you’re in right now.” “This”, says the young fish, “this is water. What I want is the ocean!”
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Aryjna
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Re: Enlightenment in a Pure Land

Post by Aryjna »

Seeker12 wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:35 am
Aryjna wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 2:25 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:26 pm

You don’t need it in Sukhavati.
I suppose so. It seems a bit strange though, when they could suggest Zangdokpalri instead.
You can travel to any pure land you want from Sukhavati. Could go to Guru Rinpoche’s if you want.
The main question is to what degree you can make rapid progress by doing that, in comparison to taking aeons until buddhahood. If you could shorten the time by travelling to Vajrayana oriented pure realms, then buddhahood would take a few centuries at most for everyone in Sukhavati. At least some, for example Lama Yeshe, as has been discussed so far, reportedly do not agree that you can do that in Sukhavati.
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Seeker12
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Re: Enlightenment in a Pure Land

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Aryjna wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:33 am The main question is to what degree you can make rapid progress by doing that, in comparison to taking aeons until buddhahood. If you could shorten the time by travelling to Vajrayana oriented pure realms, then buddhahood would take a few centuries at most for everyone in Sukhavati. At least some, for example Lama Yeshe, as has been discussed so far, reportedly do not agree that you can do that in Sukhavati.
Seems a bit odd to me given that Guru RInpoche is an emanation of Amitabha.

If you read for instance Karma Chakme's aspiration prayer (https://www.dhagpo.org/en/index.php/mul ... reat-bliss) he talks about,

"From his heart light rays go out manifesting Padmasambhava together with one billion secondary emanations of Orgyen."

Seems a bit odd to me that Amitabha would be doing this but for those who are born in his pure realm this was not accessible. But what do I know, I suppose. :shrug:

EDIT: Actually, Karma Chakme even says,

"There are a billion realms of pure emanations – such as the lands of Potala, Alakavati, Kurava, and the land of Urgyen – with a billion Chenrezi, Tara, Vajrapani, and Padmasambhava. May I encounter them and make oceans of offerings, request initiations and profound pith instructions, and quickly return without any obstacle to my place in Dewachen."
I heard this story about a fish. He swims up to an older fish and says: “I’m trying to find this thing they call the ocean.” “The ocean?” the older fish says, “that’s what you’re in right now.” “This”, says the young fish, “this is water. What I want is the ocean!”
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Aryjna
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Re: Enlightenment in a Pure Land

Post by Aryjna »

Seeker12 wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:04 pm
Aryjna wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:33 am The main question is to what degree you can make rapid progress by doing that, in comparison to taking aeons until buddhahood. If you could shorten the time by travelling to Vajrayana oriented pure realms, then buddhahood would take a few centuries at most for everyone in Sukhavati. At least some, for example Lama Yeshe, as has been discussed so far, reportedly do not agree that you can do that in Sukhavati.
Seems a bit odd to me given that Guru RInpoche is an emanation of Amitabha.
Yes, it seems strange.
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Re: Enlightenment in a Pure Land

Post by Malcolm »

Aryjna wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:39 pm
Seeker12 wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:04 pm
Aryjna wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:33 am The main question is to what degree you can make rapid progress by doing that, in comparison to taking aeons until buddhahood. If you could shorten the time by travelling to Vajrayana oriented pure realms, then buddhahood would take a few centuries at most for everyone in Sukhavati. At least some, for example Lama Yeshe, as has been discussed so far, reportedly do not agree that you can do that in Sukhavati.
Seems a bit odd to me given that Guru RInpoche is an emanation of Amitabha.
Yes, it seems strange.
Vajrayana is the most rare teaching. For example, it will not be taught by Maitreya Buddha.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
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Jangchup Donden
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Re: Enlightenment in a Pure Land

Post by Jangchup Donden »

AmidaB wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 2:30 pm
Aryjna wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:51 pm
AmidaB wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:25 pm Thanks, very interesting. Any clue why the 'OM MANI PADME HUM' is better facilitator to Guru Rinpoche's pure land than his own mantra?
Anyway: 'OM A HUM VAJRA GURU PADMA SIDDHI HUM' :thumbsup:
It is often considered that Amitabha, Avalokiteshvara, and Padmasambhava are the three kayas, so not different, in that sense it is not strange that it is equally effective to use any of their practices.
Malcolm wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:40 pm There only apparition birth there, and no human women, And, there is in fact no Vajrayana practice in this buddhafield, as opposed to say, Zandok Palri.

There is a Dzogchen understanding of the buddhafields, but it is quite different than Chagmey’s aspiration.
What I find a bit difficult is to reconcile the fact that many Vajrayana masters (apparently including Machig Labdron), suggest going there, if it is really the case that you are cut off from Vajrayana.

Using "reason", it is not difficult to reconcile whatever possible defects, for example you can say that since you can easily travel to other buddhafields at will from Sukhavati, then you can practice tantra there, and as such there is no limitation. However, putting things together using reasoning in this way is not really the same as having an authoritative explanation on the matter.
Compared to Sukhavati how hard is to be born in Guru Rinpoche's pure land? Is there some kind of 'list' or 'lists' for the needed qualifications to be born in Zangdokpalri? Is getting enlightened possible there?
In a teaching awhile back I asked this question and the answer was 1 million Guru Rinpoche Mantras (or maybe 5 million due to it being the times of degeneration) was enough to guarantee rebirth there.
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heart
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Re: Enlightenment in a Pure Land

Post by heart »

Jangchup Donden wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:03 am
AmidaB wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 2:30 pm
Aryjna wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:51 pm
It is often considered that Amitabha, Avalokiteshvara, and Padmasambhava are the three kayas, so not different, in that sense it is not strange that it is equally effective to use any of their practices.


What I find a bit difficult is to reconcile the fact that many Vajrayana masters (apparently including Machig Labdron), suggest going there, if it is really the case that you are cut off from Vajrayana.

Using "reason", it is not difficult to reconcile whatever possible defects, for example you can say that since you can easily travel to other buddhafields at will from Sukhavati, then you can practice tantra there, and as such there is no limitation. However, putting things together using reasoning in this way is not really the same as having an authoritative explanation on the matter.
Compared to Sukhavati how hard is to be born in Guru Rinpoche's pure land? Is there some kind of 'list' or 'lists' for the needed qualifications to be born in Zangdokpalri? Is getting enlightened possible there?
In a teaching awhile back I asked this question and the answer was 1 million Guru Rinpoche Mantras (or maybe 5 million due to it being the times of degeneration) was enough to guarantee rebirth there.
1,200,000 or 4,800,000 would be the correct number. This is normally done during the guru yoga part of the Ngondro in the Nyingma tradition.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Aryjna
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Re: Enlightenment in a Pure Land

Post by Aryjna »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:09 am
Aryjna wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:39 pm
Seeker12 wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:04 pm
Seems a bit odd to me given that Guru RInpoche is an emanation of Amitabha.
Yes, it seems strange.
Vajrayana is the most rare teaching. For example, it will not be taught by Maitreya Buddha.
Karma Chagme talks about that too in a different text. It is a bit annoying that there isn't more of a consensus on the matter of pure lands.
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Re: Enlightenment in a Pure Land

Post by AmidaB »

heart wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:46 am
Jangchup Donden wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:03 am
AmidaB wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 2:30 pm
Compared to Sukhavati how hard is to be born in Guru Rinpoche's pure land? Is there some kind of 'list' or 'lists' for the needed qualifications to be born in Zangdokpalri? Is getting enlightened possible there?
In a teaching awhile back I asked this question and the answer was 1 million Guru Rinpoche Mantras (or maybe 5 million due to it being the times of degeneration) was enough to guarantee rebirth there.
1,200,000 or 4,800,000 would be the correct number. This is normally done during the guru yoga part of the Ngondro in the Nyingma tradition.

/magnus
Are there other conditions in this regard? E.g. using a special mala, visulaizing one or more forms of Guru Rinpoche etc?
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Re: Enlightenment in a Pure Land

Post by Seeker12 »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:09 am
Aryjna wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:39 pm
Seeker12 wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:04 pm
Seems a bit odd to me given that Guru RInpoche is an emanation of Amitabha.
Yes, it seems strange.
Vajrayana is the most rare teaching. For example, it will not be taught by Maitreya Buddha.
However, isn't it said that there will be a Guru RInpoche for each Buddha of this era?

In general I don't believe it's said that Shakyamuni necessarily taught all of the tantras that are currently practiced, although they are available to us via different pathways.

Is it similar with Maitreya, in that even if he doesn't specifically teach Vajrayana it still will be available via different lineage pathways?
I heard this story about a fish. He swims up to an older fish and says: “I’m trying to find this thing they call the ocean.” “The ocean?” the older fish says, “that’s what you’re in right now.” “This”, says the young fish, “this is water. What I want is the ocean!”
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Re: Enlightenment in a Pure Land

Post by heart »

AmidaB wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:10 pm
heart wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:46 am
Jangchup Donden wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:03 am

In a teaching awhile back I asked this question and the answer was 1 million Guru Rinpoche Mantras (or maybe 5 million due to it being the times of degeneration) was enough to guarantee rebirth there.
1,200,000 or 4,800,000 would be the correct number. This is normally done during the guru yoga part of the Ngondro in the Nyingma tradition.

/magnus
Are there other conditions in this regard? E.g. using a special mala, visulaizing one or more forms of Guru Rinpoche etc?
Get the transmission and teaching for any Nyingma Ngondro, they are all a bit different.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Aryjna
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Re: Enlightenment in a Pure Land

Post by Aryjna »

Seeker12 wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:57 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:09 am
Aryjna wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:39 pm

Yes, it seems strange.
Vajrayana is the most rare teaching. For example, it will not be taught by Maitreya Buddha.
However, isn't it said that there will be a Guru RInpoche for each Buddha of this era?

In general I don't believe it's said that Shakyamuni necessarily taught all of the tantras that are currently practiced, although they are available to us via different pathways.

Is it similar with Maitreya, in that even if he doesn't specifically teach Vajrayana it still will be available via different lineage pathways?
It is said in various texts that Vajrayana is much more difficult to meet. For example, from "The Life of Shabkar"
As it is stated in the Tantra of the Enlightenment of Mahavairocana:

The omniscient ones in this world
Are like the Udumbara flower:
In a hundred kalpas, one may or may not appear.
The Secret Mantrayana tradition is even more rare.

The omniscient Longchen Rabjam said:

To gain this human body is one
chance in a hundred.
Moreover, to meet the Dharma is as
rare as seeing a star in the daytime,
And to meet the Dharma of the supreme
vehicle is next to impossible.
So now is the time to practice the
sacred teachings wholeheartedly.
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Seeker12
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Re: Enlightenment in a Pure Land

Post by Seeker12 »

Aryjna wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 6:07 pm
It is said in various texts that Vajrayana is much more difficult to meet. For example, from "The Life of Shabkar"
As it is stated in the Tantra of the Enlightenment of Mahavairocana:

The omniscient ones in this world
Are like the Udumbara flower:
In a hundred kalpas, one may or may not appear.
The Secret Mantrayana tradition is even more rare.

The omniscient Longchen Rabjam said:

To gain this human body is one
chance in a hundred.
Moreover, to meet the Dharma is as
rare as seeing a star in the daytime,
And to meet the Dharma of the supreme
vehicle is next to impossible.
So now is the time to practice the
sacred teachings wholeheartedly.
That may be so, but I think that also applies now, even though secret mantra is available in the world, and I am quite certain I have seen it written that every Buddha of our age, or even perhaps every buddha period, has a guru rinpoche also. I can't recall where I've read that though.

And as far as I have gathered, it is not the case necessarily that all of the Vajrayana that's available now is said to be traced to Shakyamuni Buddha. There are other lineages than just that, and in the future I believe there is some thought that even if a Buddha like Maitreya does not specifically teach secret mantra, that doesn't mean it won't be there for those who have the appropriate karma and what not.

Anyway, probably essentially a speculative discussion as I'm not sure that anyone here can directly know. But who knows, maybe someone can, or maybe someone knows where I read that thing about Guru Rinpoches appearing with each Buddha.

Anyway, just some thoughts, for what they're worth. Although, to be fair, that tantra quote could easily be read to be saying that secret mantra will not be available with every buddha.
I heard this story about a fish. He swims up to an older fish and says: “I’m trying to find this thing they call the ocean.” “The ocean?” the older fish says, “that’s what you’re in right now.” “This”, says the young fish, “this is water. What I want is the ocean!”
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Re: Enlightenment in a Pure Land

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

What defines a “pure land”?
If a pure land is defined as being one in which the Dharma is taught continually, then, if a practitioner is able to perceive all phenomena as a Dharma teaching, then in that sense, one is experiencing a pure land.
If, as a requirement, such a pure land must be established by a tathagata, then such a pure land is experienced by relying on tathagatagharba, or putting faith in the inherent Buddha-nature of one’s own mind.
Since our samsaric experience is almost unavoidably dualistic (we always perceive self-and-other; awareness and object-of-awareness) the most expedient means of pure land realization is through a pure land Buddha such as Amitabha.
Since duality is a subset of conceptuality, abandoning conceptual grasping will lead to transcending duality. This is most easily accomplished by focusing on a pure land recitation or mantra (Sutrayana or Vajrayana) such as “Namo Amitabha” which itself is a non-conceptual practice.
EMPTIFUL.
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Re: Enlightenment in a Pure Land

Post by Donny »

Since this thread is already very interesting and helpful, i hope its OK when i ask if someone knows resources where one can learn more about Pure Land Teachings in Tibetan Buddhism?

I really enjoyed "Peaceful Death, Joyful Rebirth: A Tibetan Buddhist Guidebook" by Tulku Thondup, but haven't found anything yet that goes into greater detail.

:anjali:
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