Enlightenment in a Pure Land

Forum for discussion of Tibetan Buddhism. Questions specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
GrapeLover
Posts: 102
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:55 am

Re: Enlightenment in a Pure Land

Post by GrapeLover »

Zhen Li wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:47 pm
AJP wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:57 pm The 48 Vows of Amitabha Buddha are a very fortuitous Dharma to be connected with don't underestimate it.
Also, we have to be very careful with this talk of comparing Pure Lands, it can easily slip into slandering the Dharma territory if we are speaking ill of one Buddha and his land in comparison to another. For instance, do we know with certainty that merit is accumulated faster in the Sāha world than in Sukhāvatī? If one seriously thinks that this is so being in this Sāha world, without access to any nirmaṇakāya, let alone sambhogakāya, and in the age of Dharma Decline where almost no one teaches the True Dharma, upholds the precepts, replete with the five defilements, while knowing that Sukhāvatī not only allows one to be instantaneously imbued with all of the requisites for reception and practice of the Dharma, and the ability to visit and make offerings to all buddhas instantaneously, then one does not understand merits. What one may be trying to say by such things is that we have further to climb on our own in the Sāha world, whereas in Sukhāvatī, Amitābha does most of the hard work through the merit of his past practices as Dharmakara Bodhisattva. That's true. But the opportunities for merit here are truly scanty, and the opportunities in Sukhāvatī are infinite.
It's just literally in the Longer Sukhavati Sutra:

"In this world, you should extensively plant roots of virtue, be benevolent, give generously, abstain from breaking the precepts, be patient and diligent, teach people with sincerity and wisdom, do virtuous deeds, and practice good. If you strictly observe the precepts of abstinence with upright thought and mindfulness even for a day and a night, the merit acquired will surpass that of practicing good in the land of Amitayus for a hundred years. The reason is that in that Buddha-land of effortless spontaneity all the inhabitants do good without committing even a hair's breadth of evil. If in this world you do good for ten days and nights, the merit acquired will surpass that of practicing good in the Buddha-land of other quarters for a thousand years."
User avatar
Aryjna
Posts: 1267
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:45 pm

Re: Enlightenment in a Pure Land

Post by Aryjna »

Since no one yet has contributed something specific on the Vajrayana view, I want to add (though I think it is well known), that there are many tantric practices related to Sukhavati, and many Vajrayana teachers suggest aspiring and practicing towards going there.
User avatar
jake
Global Moderator
Posts: 1487
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:13 pm

Re: Enlightenment in a Pure Land

Post by jake »

Aryjna wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:40 pm Since no one yet has contributed something specific on the Vajrayana view, I want to add (though I think it is well known), that there are many tantric practices related to Sukhavati, and many Vajrayana teachers suggest aspiring and practicing towards going there.
I assume by Vajrayana view you mean the Tibetan view otherwise there were a couple posts on the previous page regarding Shingon.
User avatar
Aryjna
Posts: 1267
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:45 pm

Re: Enlightenment in a Pure Land

Post by Aryjna »

jake wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:01 pm
Aryjna wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:40 pm Since no one yet has contributed something specific on the Vajrayana view, I want to add (though I think it is well known), that there are many tantric practices related to Sukhavati, and many Vajrayana teachers suggest aspiring and practicing towards going there.
I assume by Vajrayana view you mean the Tibetan view otherwise there were a couple posts on the previous page regarding Shingon.
Yes, as the main argument that has been brought up so far 'against' Sukhavati is from a Gelug background apparently.
Malcolm
Posts: 32819
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Enlightenment in a Pure Land

Post by Malcolm »

Zhen Li wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:28 amyou are learning from the Dharmakāya itself...
This isn't possible. Only buddhas can perceive the dharmakāya. Not even tenth stage bodhisattvas can perceive the dharmakāya. And, Amitabha's buddhafield is most certainly a nirmāṇakāya buddhafield. This means that the Buddha's statement in the Lanka about buddhas attaining buddhahood only in Akaniṣṭha Ghanavyūha should be observed:

"Perfect buddhahood is attained there,
the emanated ones attain buddhahood here."

Jñānaśrībhadra comments, "The exhibition of the nirmāṇakāya's buddhahood lacks the fortune and the conditions of exhibiting the sambhogakāya, but if the nirmāṇakāya's buddhahood is not exhibited, sentient beings of the desire realm will lack confidence."

Further, the great Tibetan Buddhist master, Tāranātha (as well as other masters) clearly identifies Sukhāvati as a nirmāṇakāya buddhafield in his reply to one Geshe Paldan Śākya, "The Kusmalatagarbha buddhafield mentioned in the ninetieth chapter of the Avatamska Sūtra is the nirmāṇakāya buddhafield of Buddha Vairocana, not Akaniṣṭha Ghanavyūha, because it is explained that the buddhafield of Buddha of Vairocana has definite dimensions and is newly made, like Sukhāvati." In other words, Sukhāvati is a conditioned buddhafield, unlike the sambhogakāya buddhafield of Akaniṣṭha Ghanavyūha.

In the context of birth in Sukhāvati, no one there directly receives teachings from the dharmakāya, other than in the sense that they hear the words from the tongue of Buddha Amitabha. And of course, many beings there are not so blessed, since they reside inside of lotuses which block their sight of Amitabha Buddha for what are in human terms, eons. So while your enthusiasm for Amitabha and Sukhāvati are indeed laudable, it is misconception to claim, as you do, "you are learning from the Dharmakāya itself, it is instantaneous and beyond the need for methods that can be calculated in the normal sense of duration and ascension." Sukhavati is a pure buddhafield, but it is a nirmāṇakāya buddhafield only, it is not beyond time.

You are correct in asserting however, that from the vantage point of Sukhāvati one may obtain teachings from other nirmāṇakāya buddhafields with more ease.
User avatar
Zhen Li
Posts: 1583
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:15 am
Location: Kamakura

Re: Enlightenment in a Pure Land

Post by Zhen Li »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:16 am This isn't possible. Only buddhas can perceive the dharmakāya. Not even tenth stage bodhisattvas can perceive the dharmakāya. And, Amitabha's buddhafield is most certainly a nirmāṇakāya buddhafield. This means that the Buddha's statement in the Lanka about buddhas attaining buddhahood only in Akaniṣṭha Ghanavyūha should be observed:
Apologies, because this is where East Asian Pure Land differs from the Indo-Tibetan tradition (in fact I initially responded to this thread without noticing it is in the Tibetan Buddhism forum, so excuse my butting in), in that the dharmakāya is considered to have two aspects:
Tanluan wrote:All Buddhas and bodhisattvas have dharma-bodies of two dimensions; dharma-body as suchness and dharma-body as compassionate means. Dharma-body as compassionate means arises from the dharma-body as suchness, and dharma-body as suchness emerges out of dharma-body as compassionate means. These two dimensions of dharma-body differ but are not separable; they are one but cannot be regarded as identical.
The other bodies are considered to be part of dharma-body as compassionate means:
Shinran, Kyogyoshinsho wrote:The dharma-body is like the sun, and the light of accommodated and transformed bodies pervades all the worlds. Sun is inadequate for expressing immovability; hence, it is further said, like Mount Sumeru abide [immovable].
In East Asian Pure Land thought, there are nirmāṇakāya aspects to Sukhāvatī but it is inseparable from dharmakāya. Of course, it goes without saying that Amitābha is regarded as a dharmakāya, which has these aspects of compassionate means.
GrapeLover wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:25 pm It's just literally in the Longer Sukhavati Sutra:
That is true in principle, as there is more evil to overcome, one could accumulate more merit. What you miss in the sūtra passage is that it goes on to essentially establish that truly doing good is essentially infeasible to impossible and "evil abounds and there is no spontaneous arising of good." It was made easier during the time when the Buddha was present, but gradually as we become more and more distant from him in time, the "teaching will gradually perish" and beings "will suffer from the five pains and the five burnings as before." In conclusion, the Buddha instructs Ānanda to face west and pay homage to Amitābha. The sūtra is indicating that we cannot attain awakening through accumulating merits from good acts, particularly as the Dharma declines:
Shinran, Hymns of the Dharma Ages wrote:Although we have the teachings of Śākyamuni,
There are no sentient beings who can practice them;
Hence, it is taught that in the last dharma-age,
Not a single person will attain enlightenment through them.
This is not to say that there are occasionally exceptions and people who attain great things in this age—but I have not seen evidence of it, thus I only consider the Tathāgata as my teacher.
GrapeLover
Posts: 102
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:55 am

Re: Enlightenment in a Pure Land

Post by GrapeLover »

Zhen Li wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:49 am That is true in principle, as there is more evil to overcome, one could accumulate more merit. What you miss in the sūtra passage is that it goes on to essentially establish that truly doing good is essentially infeasible to impossible and "evil abounds and there is no spontaneous arising of good." It was made easier during the time when the Buddha was present, but gradually as we become more and more distant from him in time, the "teaching will gradually perish" and beings "will suffer from the five pains and the five burnings as before." In conclusion, the Buddha instructs Ānanda to face west and pay homage to Amitābha. The sūtra is indicating that we cannot attain awakening through accumulating merits from good acts, particularly as the Dharma declines:
Shinran, Hymns of the Dharma Ages wrote:Although we have the teachings of Śākyamuni,
There are no sentient beings who can practice them;
Hence, it is taught that in the last dharma-age,
Not a single person will attain enlightenment through them.
This is not to say that there are occasionally exceptions and people who attain great things in this age—but I have not seen evidence of it, thus I only consider the Tathāgata as my teacher.
That all ‘self-power’ is futile and impossible is indeed the doctrine of the Japanese schools, but I don’t think that you can use the sutra itself to justify this without holding it as a preconceived notion. The Buddha never implies that it’s impossible to do good or that his instruction to do so can’t be fulfilled; later still than the points you cite he again instructs to “do meritorious deeds and sincerely transfer the merit acquired”. If anything, he actually says that it is more difficult to “to hear this sutra, have faith in it with joy and hold fast to it” than to perform the practices and the paramitas.

In the mainland schools, combining your self-powered generation of merit with Amitabha’s vows is an integral part of the practice. In the Vietnamese view expressed in Daily Practices of Western Pureland Buddhism, it’s held that higher-capacity practitioners will perform a wider range of virtuous practices, and this is encouraged. And again, as you note, this is the Tibetan Buddhist forum, where such a view is shared.
User avatar
Zhen Li
Posts: 1583
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:15 am
Location: Kamakura

Re: Enlightenment in a Pure Land

Post by Zhen Li »

GrapeLover wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:32 am That all ‘self-power’ is futile and impossible is indeed the doctrine of the Japanese schools, but I don’t think that you can use the sutra itself to justify this without holding it as a preconceived notion. The Buddha never implies that it’s impossible to do good or that his instruction to do so can’t be fulfilled; later still than the points you cite he again instructs to “do meritorious deeds and sincerely transfer the merit acquired”. If anything, he actually says that it is more difficult to “to hear this sutra, have faith in it with joy and hold fast to it” than to perform the practices and the paramitas.
Transference of merit as a cause for birth corresponds to the 20th vow. For Hōnen, this was a provisional cause for birth, whereas the 18th Vow is the definitive cause. He was not saying that all self-power is impossible, just that it is impossible for many or most beings, and unfeasible even for most Buddhists. This is the implication behind emphasising the difficulty, and the increasing difficulty, of doing acts of good and upholding Śākyamuni Buddha's teachings in the Sāha world—this is also why the Longer Sūtra is the final sūtra to be preserved in the last 100 years of the Age of Dharma Decline. The faith and joy, which correspond to the 18th Vow, are the most difficult of all difficulties to attain because they require abandoning a mind of calculation. Definitive and provisional causes correspond to attainment of buddhahood and womb-like birth respectively. Thus, from a conventional level, it is hard to practice in the Pure Land and Varis' point is correct, but from the side of suchness, it is beyond practice both in the Pure Land and in this life (that is why Nembutsu is referred to as the non-practice practice).
GrapeLover wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:32 am In the mainland schools, combining your self-powered generation of merit with Amitabha’s vows is an integral part of the practice. In the Vietnamese view expressed in Daily Practices of Western Pureland Buddhism, it’s held that higher-capacity practitioners will perform a wider range of virtuous practices, and this is encouraged. And again, as you note, this is the Tibetan Buddhist forum, where such a view is shared.
Combined practice is not an approach shared by all mainland teachers (we cannot talk of uniformity in either Japan or elsewhere). Of course those who teach single practice are considered patriarchs by the Japanese schools—Tanluan, Taocho, Shandao. But just focusing on the sūtras for the moment, the Contemplation Sūtra of course puts those with the three minds of faith at the Highest Grade of the Highest Rank, equal to those with the highest kind of self-power practice. I'm not trying to win over anyone to my view, one is led to one's path by one's own karma, but I am responding as I see necessary.
User avatar
AmidaB
Posts: 65
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:53 pm

Re: Enlightenment in a Pure Land

Post by AmidaB »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:16 am
Zhen Li wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:28 amyou are learning from the Dharmakāya itself...
This isn't possible. Only buddhas can perceive the dharmakāya. Not even tenth stage bodhisattvas can perceive the dharmakāya. And, Amitabha's buddhafield is most certainly a nirmāṇakāya buddhafield. This means that the Buddha's statement in the Lanka about buddhas attaining buddhahood only in Akaniṣṭha Ghanavyūha should be observed:

"Perfect buddhahood is attained there,
the emanated ones attain buddhahood here."

Jñānaśrībhadra comments, "The exhibition of the nirmāṇakāya's buddhahood lacks the fortune and the conditions of exhibiting the sambhogakāya, but if the nirmāṇakāya's buddhahood is not exhibited, sentient beings of the desire realm will lack confidence."

Further, the great Tibetan Buddhist master, Tāranātha (as well as other masters) clearly identifies Sukhāvati as a nirmāṇakāya buddhafield in his reply to one Geshe Paldan Śākya, "The Kusmalatagarbha buddhafield mentioned in the ninetieth chapter of the Avatamska Sūtra is the nirmāṇakāya buddhafield of Buddha Vairocana, not Akaniṣṭha Ghanavyūha, because it is explained that the buddhafield of Buddha of Vairocana has definite dimensions and is newly made, like Sukhāvati." In other words, Sukhāvati is a conditioned buddhafield, unlike the sambhogakāya buddhafield of Akaniṣṭha Ghanavyūha.

In the context of birth in Sukhāvati, no one there directly receives teachings from the dharmakāya, other than in the sense that they hear the words from the tongue of Buddha Amitabha. And of course, many beings there are not so blessed, since they reside inside of lotuses which block their sight of Amitabha Buddha for what are in human terms, eons. So while your enthusiasm for Amitabha and Sukhāvati are indeed laudable, it is misconception to claim, as you do, "you are learning from the Dharmakāya itself, it is instantaneous and beyond the need for methods that can be calculated in the normal sense of duration and ascension." Sukhavati is a pure buddhafield, but it is a nirmāṇakāya buddhafield only, it is not beyond time.

You are correct in asserting however, that from the vantage point of Sukhāvati one may obtain teachings from other nirmāṇakāya buddhafields with more ease.
:good:

In realtion to this and the o.p. and also for better overall understanding I have searched for a post where if my memory serves me right Loppon Malcolm had a longer take on the meaning and context of Vajrayogini's pure land and Kecharihood. Unfortunately my search-fu is not so great, so any help would be greatly appreciated.
:anjali:
GrapeLover
Posts: 102
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:55 am

Re: Enlightenment in a Pure Land

Post by GrapeLover »

Zhen Li wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:31 am Thus, from a conventional level, it is hard to practice in the Pure Land and Varis' point is correct
That is fine then. I was only responding because your points in your earlier post about slandering the dharma and not understanding merits seemed quite extreme and without any nuance in terms of considering the validity of the view.
User avatar
Zhen Li
Posts: 1583
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:15 am
Location: Kamakura

Re: Enlightenment in a Pure Land

Post by Zhen Li »

GrapeLover wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:42 am
Zhen Li wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:31 am Thus, from a conventional level, it is hard to practice in the Pure Land and Varis' point is correct
That is fine then. I was only responding because your points in your earlier post about slandering the dharma and not understanding merits seemed quite extreme and without any nuance in terms of considering the validity of the view.
That is true.
Malcolm
Posts: 32819
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Enlightenment in a Pure Land

Post by Malcolm »

Zhen Li wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:49 am
Malcolm wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:16 am This isn't possible. Only buddhas can perceive the dharmakāya. Not even tenth stage bodhisattvas can perceive the dharmakāya. And, Amitabha's buddhafield is most certainly a nirmāṇakāya buddhafield. This means that the Buddha's statement in the Lanka about buddhas attaining buddhahood only in Akaniṣṭha Ghanavyūha should be observed:
Apologies, because this is where East Asian Pure Land differs from the Indo-Tibetan tradition (in fact I initially responded to this thread without noticing it is in the Tibetan Buddhism forum, so excuse my butting in), in that the dharmakāya is considered to have two aspects:

Tanluan wrote:All Buddhas and bodhisattvas have dharma-bodies of two dimensions; dharma-body as suchness and dharma-body as compassionate means. Dharma-body as compassionate means arises from the dharma-body as suchness, and dharma-body as suchness emerges out of dharma-body as compassionate means. These two dimensions of dharma-body differ but are not separable; they are one but cannot be regarded as identical.
The other bodies are considered to be part of dharma-body as compassionate means:
Shinran, Kyogyoshinsho wrote:The dharma-body is like the sun, and the light of accommodated and transformed bodies pervades all the worlds. Sun is inadequate for expressing immovability; hence, it is further said, like Mount Sumeru abide [immovable].
In East Asian Pure Land thought, there are nirmāṇakāya aspects to Sukhāvatī but it is inseparable from dharmakāya. Of course, it goes without saying that Amitābha is regarded as a dharmakāya, which has these aspects of compassionate means.
Your objection is not really valid. Why? Because there is only one dharmakāya, and only one teacher, the dharmakāya, since the dharmakāya of all buddhas is the same, that is, the dharmakāya of Amitabha is not different than the dharmakāya of Śakyamuni, etc. But it is nevertheless the case that no one can see the dharmakāya other than a buddha, since the dharmakāya of the buddhas is just their complete realization of buddhahood.

Because of the compassionate nature of buddhahood, different sentient beings experience different nirmāṇakāyas, but only bodhisattvas on the pure stages, 8-10, are able to perceive the sambhogakāya, since the sambhogakāya cannot be perceived by any person who is tainted with afflictive obscurations.

As for the dharmakāya having two aspects, this is a distinction without a difference. The dharmakāya emanates the sambhogakāya, and the sambhogakāya emanates various buddhas such as Amitabha, Śākyamuni, and the other of the 1002 buddhas of the fortunate eon.

But rather than be distracted by buddhology of Amitabha Buddha, we ought to be focusing rather on the nature of Sukhāvati. 1) Sukhāvati is compounded because it was formed out of the Bodhisattva Dipaṃkāra's cultivation of a buddhafield. This is an undeniable fact. 2) Sukhāvati may be regarded as permanent, because it is sustained by Bodhisattva Dipaṃkāra's aspiration, which is limitless, given that he was an āryabodhisattva who perfected the perfections, one of which cultivating a buddhafield, however, Akaniṣṭha Ghanavyūha is uncompounded. The Ghanavyūha Sūtra
The buddhas abiding in that place
praise Ghanavyūha.
Ghanavyūha has existed from beginningless time.
A self-originated emanation is there,
the stainless Buddha.
Dwelling beyond the three elements,
That place is without grasping to bliss,
it is free from the experience of I and mine,
it is unchanging, ultimately permanent, and stable.
Ghanavyūha is unconditioned.
The perfect buddhas awaken [there]
but without buddhahood in the supreme place, Akaniṣṭha,
the deeds of the buddha will not be performed in the desire realm.
Once they depart Ghanavyūha
ten million emanations of the Buddha
will always remain in yogic equipoise.
Thus, Amitabha also actually attains buddhahood in Akaniṣṭha Ghanavyūha. Further, unlike Sukhāvati, Ghanavyūha has no śrāvakas, since even arhats have afflictive obscurations. There is a great deal more that could be said about this.

But to summarize, there is no justification at all in commonly accepted scriptures for your two central claims: 1) "[Y]ou are learning from the Dharmakāya itself;" 2)"[It] is instantaneous and beyond the need for methods that can be calculated in the normal sense of duration and ascension."

As to your comment on your two citation, "In East Asian Pure Land thought, there are nirmāṇakāya aspects to Sukhāvatī but it is inseparable from dharmakāya."

This is unsupportable as well: the first contradiction is that if Sukhāvati is nondual with the dharmakāya, then the dharmakāya must be compounded, because beings take birth there. The second contradition is that If Sukhavāti is nondual with the dharmakāya, then it is impossible for sentient beings to attain birth there, and the aspirations of Bodhisattva Dipaṃkāra cannot be fulfilled. Both of these negative consequences arise from asserting that Sukhāvati something more than a nirmāṇakāya buddhafield. In fact, that whole point of Sukhāvati is that it is a nirmāṇakāya buddhafield, because 1) all learned people understand that even noble bodhisattvas from the seventh stage on down cannot see the sambhogakāya, must less those of us on the paths of accumulation and application, and because 2) not even bodhisattvas on the pure stages can perceive the dharmakāya since they have remaining knowledge obscurations. Since Dipaṃkāra's vows are specifically aimed at ordinary sentient beings, it is simply an exaggeration to make the two claims you have made, since they lack a basis in scripture and they cannot be defended with reason.

These rebuttals should not be seen as a negation of Bodhisattva Dipaṃkāra's vows, nor should they be seen as a rebuttal of the aspiration to attain rebirth in Sukhāvati. Rather, they are merely proffered in order to correct misconceptions that birth in Sukhāvati is somehow a short cut to buddhahood—it is not—or that birth in Sukhāvati relieves one of having gather accumulations and perfect the perfections, and so on, the normal duties of a bodhisattva on the path. In fact, as it is well known and as you admit above, some who are born in Sukhāvti do not hear the voice or see the face of Amitabha for five hundred years. This is crucial because the Tathāgatānāṃbuddhakṣetraguṇoktadharmaparyāya states that a single day in Sukhavāti equals a kalpa in the Sahā world. This means that those who are stuck in lotuses in Sukhavāti must remain there for the equivalent of 182,500 kalpas (500 * 365) in human time. Of course they don't suffer, but still they are trapped, cannot hear the dharma, see the Buddha and so on. This is an unimaginable amount of time.

Further, this assertion of yours that the Large Sūtra is the last remaining sutra after the Buddha's doctrine is questionable, and lacks scriptural support, despite the Chinese translation of this text.

What is known as the Large Sūtra in the Tibetan canon does not affirm this, It merely states, "In the future, until the sublime Dharma utterly perishes, this great Dharmapariyaya will be truly praised by all the buddhas, extolled by all the buddhas, and conferred by all the buddhas." But there is no mention at all of it being the last surviving sūtra at the end of Śākyamūni's dispensation, as the Sanskrit (See Gomez, Land of Bliss: Hawaii, 1996, pg. 108: section 150) also bears out.
Varis
Posts: 320
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:09 am

Re: Enlightenment in a Pure Land

Post by Varis »

Zhen Li wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:28 am The Amitābha sūtras do not specify a limit to methods practiced by bodhisattvas in Sukhāvatī, nor is there specified that they need to practice to attain the thirty-two marks, infinite dhāraṇīs, or all the supernatural powers—they have them naturally and inherently by the power of Amitābha's vows. Practicing or not practicing vajrayāna or sūtrayāna is not really a question, since "practice" Sukhāvatī is essentially just ekayāna—you are learning from the Dharmakāya itself, it is instantaneous and beyond the need for methods that can be calculated in the normal sense of duration and ascension.
We can reasonably assume Vajrayana is not practiced in Dewachen because the sentient beings that are born there lack sex organs.
User avatar
Aryjna
Posts: 1267
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:45 pm

Re: Enlightenment in a Pure Land

Post by Aryjna »

Varis wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:19 pm
Zhen Li wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:28 am The Amitābha sūtras do not specify a limit to methods practiced by bodhisattvas in Sukhāvatī, nor is there specified that they need to practice to attain the thirty-two marks, infinite dhāraṇīs, or all the supernatural powers—they have them naturally and inherently by the power of Amitābha's vows. Practicing or not practicing vajrayāna or sūtrayāna is not really a question, since "practice" Sukhāvatī is essentially just ekayāna—you are learning from the Dharmakāya itself, it is instantaneous and beyond the need for methods that can be calculated in the normal sense of duration and ascension.
We can reasonably assume Vajrayana is not practiced in Dewachen because the sentient beings that are born there lack sex organs.
The necessity for sexual organs seems to apply only in the context of particular classes of tantra and/or schools.
Malcolm
Posts: 32819
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Enlightenment in a Pure Land

Post by Malcolm »

Aryjna wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:37 pm
Varis wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:19 pm
Zhen Li wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:28 am The Amitābha sūtras do not specify a limit to methods practiced by bodhisattvas in Sukhāvatī, nor is there specified that they need to practice to attain the thirty-two marks, infinite dhāraṇīs, or all the supernatural powers—they have them naturally and inherently by the power of Amitābha's vows. Practicing or not practicing vajrayāna or sūtrayāna is not really a question, since "practice" Sukhāvatī is essentially just ekayāna—you are learning from the Dharmakāya itself, it is instantaneous and beyond the need for methods that can be calculated in the normal sense of duration and ascension.
We can reasonably assume Vajrayana is not practiced in Dewachen because the sentient beings that are born there lack sex organs.
The necessity for sexual organs seems to apply only in the context of particular classes of tantra and/or schools.
Gender differentiation applies In all four classes of tantra.
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 4195
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Enlightenment in a Pure Land

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

You can’t fit an infinite Buddha within a finite space.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook develops outward insight.
User avatar
AmidaB
Posts: 65
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:53 pm

Re: Enlightenment in a Pure Land

Post by AmidaB »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:25 am You can’t fit an infinite Buddha within a finite space.
You are correct. If my interpretation of the Aspiration Prayer of Samantabhadra is correct not one but an infinite number of Buddhas fill even an infinitely little space. :smile:
User avatar
AmidaB
Posts: 65
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:53 pm

Re: Enlightenment in a Pure Land

Post by AmidaB »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:49 am
Aryjna wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:37 pm
Varis wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:19 pm

We can reasonably assume Vajrayana is not practiced in Dewachen because the sentient beings that are born there lack sex organs.
The necessity for sexual organs seems to apply only in the context of particular classes of tantra and/or schools.
Gender differentiation applies In all four classes of tantra.
How it is interpreted in the case of pure lands?
User avatar
Aryjna
Posts: 1267
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:45 pm

Re: Enlightenment in a Pure Land

Post by Aryjna »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:49 am
Aryjna wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:37 pm
Varis wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:19 pm

We can reasonably assume Vajrayana is not practiced in Dewachen because the sentient beings that are born there lack sex organs.
The necessity for sexual organs seems to apply only in the context of particular classes of tantra and/or schools.
Gender differentiation applies In all four classes of tantra.
Are sexual organs needed to practice tantra in all systems? I thought it was the case only in Anuttarayogatantra in particular schools.
Malcolm
Posts: 32819
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Enlightenment in a Pure Land

Post by Malcolm »

Aryjna wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:21 am
Malcolm wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:49 am
Aryjna wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:37 pm

The necessity for sexual organs seems to apply only in the context of particular classes of tantra and/or schools.
Gender differentiation applies In all four classes of tantra.
Are sexual organs needed to practice tantra in all systems? I thought it was the case only in Anuttarayogatantra in particular schools.
Gendered bliss arousal is needed in all four systems whether by gazing, holding hands, embracing, or intercourse, in that order.
Post Reply

Return to “Tibetan Buddhism”