What is final nirvana in the Tibetan tradition?

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Josef
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Re: What is final nirvana in the Tibetan tradition?

Post by Josef »

Artziebetter1 wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:57 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:50 pm From the point of understanding of ordinary beings,
Perfect awareness, and extinction of “consciousness” (as we experience it) appear as contradictory.
Two totally different things.
This seems to be your reoccurring dilemma.

But for a Buddha, this is not a contradiction at all.
You might even say that buddhahood itself is
the resolving of this apparent conflict
(both sides of which are samsaric concepts).

According to the Vajrayana Teachings
Buddha is a manifestation of (the) Dharmakaya,
You might say, the ultimate big truth of everything.
Yes it does seem very contradictory.from what I understand a Buddha has no awareness at all the way I mean it and he acts based on past merit and action like a robot.thats just what I fear and have read.I could be wrong.
You are mistaken, but that's okay. This is why we have teachers and rely on others to help us understand.
If a buddha had no awareness we would be nihilists, not buddhists.
Buddha's have direct perception of yeshe/jnana, which is the natural condition of all beings. Buddha's are not limited in any way and are completely aware. They dont have any karma or merit to act upon since they have exhausted all traces of defilement.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: What is final nirvana in the Tibetan tradition?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Ever tried to change a bad habit? Ever tried to get over an emotional hangup?

It’s sentient beings that are confined and robotic in their actions, not Buddha’s.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: What is final nirvana in the Tibetan tradition?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Artziebetter1 wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 9:13 pm

Interesting quotes from that book.if you do not have sight,touch,smell,or hearing then aren't you completely unconscious?
No, of course not. Mental experiences can exist independent of external senses, this is verifiable even by Western science, and you have your very own easily accessible example: dreams.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low
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Re: What is final nirvana in the Tibetan tradition?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Each of the bhumis represents an exponentially greater level of freedom of mind.

Ego is a constraint imposed on mind’s natural freedom. It frustrates that freedom. Or rather, it thwarts it into being experienced as the 6 realms of samsara. That is a major reason why it is not possible to have samsara be satisfactory.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: What is final nirvana in the Tibetan tradition?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 12:45 am Ever tried to change a bad habit? Ever tried to get over an emotional hangup?

It’s sentient beings that are confined and robotic in their actions, not Buddha’s.
:good:
Being driven by karmic impulse is almost the definition of "robotic".
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low
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Caoimhghín
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Re: What is final nirvana in the Tibetan tradition?

Post by Caoimhghín »

Caoimhghín wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 9:36 pm
Ayu wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 11:51 amIn Tibetan buddhism I only heard of 10 bhumis.
I thought there was up to 20 depending on your tradition, but I certainly am not a Tibetan Buddhist with seriously relevant exposure to Tibetan Buddhism, just a mere book reader with regards to serious interfacing with anything Tibetan, and one who often merely just skims. For instance, I can't substantiate why I think some sects add 10 whole extra bhūmis after Buddhahood.
So it looks like I'm (mis)remembering something to do with this:



Just for context.
savi saghara aṇica di, savi saghara dukha di, savi dhama aṇatva di:
yada paśadi cakhkṣuma tada nivinadi dukha eṣo mago viśodhia.

"All formations are inconstant," he said.
"All formations are stressful," he said.
"All phenomena are selfless," he said.
When one sees this, one becomes adverse to stress, and this is the path of purity.

(Gāndhārī Dharmapada fragments)
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: What is final nirvana in the Tibetan tradition?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 1:04 am
Artziebetter1 wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 9:13 pm

Interesting quotes from that book.if you do not have sight,touch,smell,or hearing then aren't you completely unconscious?
No, of course not. Mental experiences can exist independent of external senses, this is verifiable even by Western science, and you have your very own easily accessible example: dreams.
Also to this point, is that when you say “...if you do not have sight, touch, smell...” and so on, then you need to study more about what Buddhism teaches, because there is a difference between, for example, the faculty of sight and the awareness of sight.
This is something that you can explore this very minute:
Your eyesight functions by light reflecting off objects and entering your eyeballs.
If you close your eyes and cover them so that you block out all light, what do you see with your eyes? Can you see anything? No. You could also achieve this by going into a totally dark, light-proof room. You can’t see anything.
But, how do you know that you can’t see anything? How are you able to tell that you can’t see anything if your eyes aren’t able to function?
It’s because of awareness, or on this case, eye-consciousness.

Thus, as the previous reply (above) suggested, you can see and hear and feel things in dreams.
So, by doing this simple experiment, you can establish for yourself that sensory consciousness (in this case, awareness of vision) exists and function even if you “do not have”, as you say, the function of sight, etc.
Actually, “do not have” isn’t really a useful way of understanding, because it doesn’t make s distinction between, for example, eyes, eye function, and eye-consciousness.
But it also assumes that there is an actual “self” that is required, which then possesses the awareness, the function of sight, and so on.
As long as you think that a “self” is required first, in order to then have awareness, and don’t realize that it’s really the other way around, that the experience of “self” actually arises afterwards, as a kind of confused interpretation of awareness (awareness comes first), then what Buddha-hood is will never make any sense to you.

I would recommend looking up:
“ Skandhas”
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook develops outward insight.
Artziebetter1
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Re: What is final nirvana in the Tibetan tradition?

Post by Artziebetter1 »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 5:52 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 1:04 am
Artziebetter1 wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 9:13 pm

Interesting quotes from that book.if you do not have sight,touch,smell,or hearing then aren't you completely unconscious?
No, of course not. Mental experiences can exist independent of external senses, this is verifiable even by Western science, and you have your very own easily accessible example: dreams.
Also to this point, is that when you say “...if you do not have sight, touch, smell...” and so on, then you need to study more about what Buddhism teaches, because there is a difference between, for example, the faculty of sight and the awareness of sight.
This is something that you can explore this very minute:
Your eyesight functions by light reflecting off objects and entering your eyeballs.
If you close your eyes and cover them so that you block out all light, what do you see with your eyes? Can you see anything? No. You could also achieve this by going into a totally dark, light-proof room. You can’t see anything.
But, how do you know that you can’t see anything? How are you able to tell that you can’t see anything if your eyes aren’t able to function?
It’s because of awareness, or on this case, eye-consciousness.

Thus, as the previous reply (above) suggested, you can see and hear and feel things in dreams.
So, by doing this simple experiment, you can establish for yourself that sensory consciousness (in this case, awareness of vision) exists and function even if you “do not have”, as you say, the function of sight, etc.
Actually, “do not have” isn’t really a useful way of understanding, because it doesn’t make s distinction between, for example, eyes, eye function, and eye-consciousness.
But it also assumes that there is an actual “self” that is required, which then possesses the awareness, the function of sight, and so on.
As long as you think that a “self” is required first, in order to then have awareness, and don’t realize that it’s really the other way around, that the experience of “self” actually arises afterwards, as a kind of confused interpretation of awareness (awareness comes first), then what Buddha-hood is will never make any sense to you.

I would recommend looking up:
“ Skandhas”
Are you saying that a Buddha has awareness of eyesight ?and I know what skandhas are how does that fit into this?
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: What is final nirvana in the Tibetan tradition?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Artziebetter1 wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:02 pm Are you saying that a Buddha has awareness of eyesight ?and I know what skandhas are how does that fit into this?
The skandhas are the composites for the experience of the sentient being.
A Buddha doesn’t rely on those.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook develops outward insight.
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Jangchup Donden
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Re: What is final nirvana in the Tibetan tradition?

Post by Jangchup Donden »

Josef wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 12:27 am Buddha's are not limited in any way and are completely aware.
I'd be a little careful here. If Buddhas really were not limited in any way, we would all have been enlightened a long time ago. Buddhas are omniscient (know everything that's knowable) but not omnipotent.
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billy hudson
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Re: What is final nirvana in the Tibetan tradition?

Post by billy hudson »

Jangchup Donden wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:54 am
Josef wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 12:27 am Buddha's are not limited in any way and are completely aware.
I'd be a little careful here. If Buddhas really were not limited in any way, we would all have been enlightened a long time ago. Buddhas are omniscient (know everything that's knowable) but not omnipotent.
Omnipotence is a limitation.
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Re: What is final nirvana in the Tibetan tradition?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Jangchup Donden wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:54 am If Buddhas really were not limited in any way, we would all have been enlightened a long time ago. Buddhas are omniscient (know everything that's knowable) but not omnipotent.
“Not limited” has nothing to do with omnipotence. It mean free to be expressed as anything, anywhere—or something close to that. Like the sun can shine anywhere and anytime if the clouds part.

(It also suggests perennialism, but that’s another thread.)
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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