Question Regarding Samaya Pollution

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Tenma
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Question Regarding Samaya Pollution

Post by Tenma »

So, I’ve been noticing people here being concerned about not using things used by samaya breakers and some texts explicitly stating to not drink the same water from them. I wanted to ask, if someone is a samaya breaker, does that mean that they will pollute whatever environments and objects they encounter? With people who aren’t even Buddhists or those who aren’t aware that such a person is a samaya breaker, what affect does this “pollution” have, if any? How is it that whatever a person such as a samaya breaker does must be avoided as though it’s harmful? Why avoid them? Aren’t they sentient beings? This entire idea of not associating with “breakers”/“deserters” sounds awfully like a cult, especially the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
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Re: Question Regarding Samaya Pollution

Post by Ayu »

Who? Which tradition? Sources?
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Re: Question Regarding Samaya Pollution

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

Tenma wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 7:17 pm So, I’ve been noticing people here being concerned about not using things used by samaya breakers and some texts explicitly stating to not drink the same water from them. I wanted to ask, if someone is a samaya breaker, does that mean that they will pollute whatever environments and objects they encounter? With people who aren’t even Buddhists or those who aren’t aware that such a person is a samaya breaker, what affect does this “pollution” have, if any? How is it that whatever a person such as a samaya breaker does must be avoided as though it’s harmful? Why avoid them? Aren’t they sentient beings? This entire idea of not associating with “breakers”/“deserters” sounds awfully like a cult, especially the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
imo, it means that this persons, conciously or not, become linked to those who are against buddhadharma. obstructors. you want obstructors targeting you?

i've seein with my own eyes even a life-dedicated chodpa doing yidam actions to get rid of obstructors, so don't take this lightly.

realized beings can witstand them, normally we cannot.
Tenma
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Re: Question Regarding Samaya Pollution

Post by Tenma »

javier.espinoza.t wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 9:39 pm
Tenma wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 7:17 pm So, I’ve been noticing people here being concerned about not using things used by samaya breakers and some texts explicitly stating to not drink the same water from them. I wanted to ask, if someone is a samaya breaker, does that mean that they will pollute whatever environments and objects they encounter? With people who aren’t even Buddhists or those who aren’t aware that such a person is a samaya breaker, what affect does this “pollution” have, if any? How is it that whatever a person such as a samaya breaker does must be avoided as though it’s harmful? Why avoid them? Aren’t they sentient beings? This entire idea of not associating with “breakers”/“deserters” sounds awfully like a cult, especially the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
imo, it means that this persons, conciously or not, become linked to those who are against buddhadharma. obstructors. you want obstructors targeting you?

i've seein with my own eyes even a life-dedicated chodpa doing yidam actions to get rid of obstructors, so don't take this lightly.

realized beings can witstand them, normally we cannot.
What type of obstructors are we talking about?
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Re: Question Regarding Samaya Pollution

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Tenma wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 7:17 pm So, I’ve been noticing people here being concerned about not using things used by samaya breakers and some texts explicitly stating to not drink the same water from them. I wanted to ask, if someone is a samaya breaker, does that mean that they will pollute whatever environments and objects they encounter? With people who aren’t even Buddhists or those who aren’t aware that such a person is a samaya breaker, what affect does this “pollution” have, if any? How is it that whatever a person such as a samaya breaker does must be avoided as though it’s harmful? Why avoid them? Aren’t they sentient beings? This entire idea of not associating with “breakers”/“deserters” sounds awfully like a cult, especially the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Well you know, to be a proper samaya breaker you have to do several things quite badly and not regret it. Would you like to be around people who insult your lamas, you or dharma in general? The pollution could come in different ways. Be it spirits (if you believe that) or just that such people will rub off on you. We take in the characteristics of people around us a bit. Being around such people can possibly make us stagnate as they can make us less diligent or even worse, give up or go in a wrong direction.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

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Re: Question Regarding Samaya Pollution

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

This entire idea of not associating with “breakers”/“deserters” sounds awfully like a cult...
There’s a lot of things about Vajrayana that comes off as cult-like. However I don’t think “deserters” is one of them. You’re entitled to leave whenever you want.
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Re: Question Regarding Samaya Pollution

Post by Danny »

Maybe this is simplistic, but if one is engaging in refuge, bodhichitta in nice honest way, practitioner maintain even mind, where this type of issue arises?
Pure and impure separation. I like this, but I don’t like that. That is attachment to ideas.
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Re: Question Regarding Samaya Pollution

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

It's a traditional part of Tibetan Vajrayana, That said, so are hearth deities and very explicit rules about what day to build a house on. How you should interpret these things, and how to practice with them is an open question for people who are not culturally Tibetan.

Answers range from the very orthodox to the barely concerned.

I personally interpret said rules as having as few connections as possible with anti-Buddhist types, especially people who leave and are disillusioned with the Vajra Dharma. They can really screw you up.

I don't worry much about obscurations from objects, and my teachers have never emphasized this as a big concern, some do.
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Re: Question Regarding Samaya Pollution

Post by tobes »

Sometimes you have to damage something in order to discover how it functions.

Or at least, this is how I learned about samaya.

I used to also find the moral imperatives around this very coercive, maybe even ideological, and definitely psychoanalytically dangerous.

But having damaged it and discovered how it functions, I learned how to repair it and I now understand how to hold it.

Insofar as pollution is concerned, I am very untroubled by objects, but I have found that people are a different story.
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Re: Question Regarding Samaya Pollution

Post by thogme19 »

About the source, who said, tradition, i think it's from what Patrul Rinpoche said in 'Words of My Perfect Teacher' page 277-278.


As Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche said in his 'The Guru Drinks Bourbon?'
Treatment of Samaya Breakers
It is said in the Vajrayana texts that if a Vajrayana student has broken his or her samaya with a guru, the rest of the students should not associate with him or her. In fact, you are not even supposed to be in the same room.
This principle has been abused by gurus and Dharma practitioners. Some gurus have conveniently used it as a threat, intimating that if the students break samaya, it will hinder the longevity of the guru. No Vajrayana master with any kindness would ever use this kind of blatant blackmail. Likewise, the other sangha members make the student’s life miserable. This is not at all in accordance with Buddhism, let alone Vajrayana. As followers of the Buddha, we are supposed to embrace all beings with love and compassion, especially those who have violated the samaya.
The fact remains that if a person has consciously and deliberately broken samaya, he or she is not fit to be in the mandala. That person should not participate in feast offerings or take initiations with other students, and it’s good for the sangha to avoid doing tantric activities with him or her. But at no time should this person be looked down upon or despised. As a follower of the Buddha, they are the most worthy objects of compassion.

Anyway, i think that's why we should do Vajrasattva everyday [even we think we keep the vows and samayas very pure].
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Re: Question Regarding Samaya Pollution

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

Tenma wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 10:21 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 9:39 pm
Tenma wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 7:17 pm So, I’ve been noticing people here being concerned about not using things used by samaya breakers and some texts explicitly stating to not drink the same water from them. I wanted to ask, if someone is a samaya breaker, does that mean that they will pollute whatever environments and objects they encounter? With people who aren’t even Buddhists or those who aren’t aware that such a person is a samaya breaker, what affect does this “pollution” have, if any? How is it that whatever a person such as a samaya breaker does must be avoided as though it’s harmful? Why avoid them? Aren’t they sentient beings? This entire idea of not associating with “breakers”/“deserters” sounds awfully like a cult, especially the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
imo, it means that this persons, conciously or not, become linked to those who are against buddhadharma. obstructors. you want obstructors targeting you?

i've seein with my own eyes even a life-dedicated chodpa doing yidam actions to get rid of obstructors, so don't take this lightly.

realized beings can witstand them, normally we cannot.
What type of obstructors are we talking about?
all.
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Re: Question Regarding Samaya Pollution

Post by amanitamusc »

Distraction and shitty habits make us all samaya breakers and it is to me much easier to avoid a samaya breaker of the worst kind than it is to stay unbroken. Nothing cultish about it and this is coming from someone brought up jehovah nitwitness. :soapbox:
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Re: Question Regarding Samaya Pollution

Post by Ayu »

thogme19 wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:09 am About the source, who said, tradition, i think it's from what Patrul Rinpoche said in 'Words of My Perfect Teacher' page 277-278.


As Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche said in his 'The Guru Drinks Bourbon?'
Treatment of Samaya Breakers
It is said in the Vajrayana texts that if a Vajrayana student has broken his or her samaya with a guru, the rest of the students should not associate with him or her. In fact, you are not even supposed to be in the same room.
This principle has been abused by gurus and Dharma practitioners. Some gurus have conveniently used it as a threat, intimating that if the students break samaya, it will hinder the longevity of the guru. No Vajrayana master with any kindness would ever use this kind of blatant blackmail. Likewise, the other sangha members make the student’s life miserable. This is not at all in accordance with Buddhism, let alone Vajrayana. As followers of the Buddha, we are supposed to embrace all beings with love and compassion, especially those who have violated the samaya.
The fact remains that if a person has consciously and deliberately broken samaya, he or she is not fit to be in the mandala. That person should not participate in feast offerings or take initiations with other students, and it’s good for the sangha to avoid doing tantric activities with him or her. But at no time should this person be looked down upon or despised. As a follower of the Buddha, they are the most worthy objects of compassion.

Anyway, i think that's why we should do Vajrasattva everyday [even we think we keep the vows and samayas very pure].
Thank you. I think it is very important to be clear about what we are talking about exactly in this thread. The OP's question sounds as if there were some ridiculous senseless rules which harras students for minor mistakes.

So, we are talking about samaya breakers who e.g. left and agitate against the sangha. Or about people who nearly don't follow any rules or philosophy. Real opponents, not someone who just did a mistake and regrets it.
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Re: Question Regarding Samaya Pollution

Post by Malcolm »

Tenma wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 7:17 pm So, I’ve been noticing people here being concerned about not using things used by samaya breakers and some texts explicitly stating to not drink the same water from them. I wanted to ask, if someone is a samaya breaker, does that mean that they will pollute whatever environments and objects they encounter? With people who aren’t even Buddhists or those who aren’t aware that such a person is a samaya breaker, what affect does this “pollution” have, if any? How is it that whatever a person such as a samaya breaker does must be avoided as though it’s harmful? Why avoid them? Aren’t they sentient beings? This entire idea of not associating with “breakers”/“deserters” sounds awfully like a cult, especially the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
I shun samaya breakers, you should too. A samaya breaker is someone who hates their guru, hates their vajra siblings, lacks bodhicitta, etc. We also have a samaya to avoid such people.
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Re: Question Regarding Samaya Pollution

Post by Danny »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 12:57 pm
I shun samaya breakers, you should too. A samaya breaker is someone who hates their guru, hates their vajra siblings, lacks bodhicitta, etc. We also have a samaya to avoid such people.
With all that said, it sounds harsh, but actually not really. You simply would have no connection to such an individual. However, there is nothing to say that such an individual would not be an expression of Buddha activity. Compassion for their actions, not a revenge or motivated by negativity towards the person. That would be something very bad no?
Hitting a bad dog, doesn’t make the dog good, just makes it badder.
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Re: Question Regarding Samaya Pollution

Post by Malcolm »

Danny wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:43 am
Malcolm wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 12:57 pm
I shun samaya breakers, you should too. A samaya breaker is someone who hates their guru, hates their vajra siblings, lacks bodhicitta, etc. We also have a samaya to avoid such people.
With all that said, it sounds harsh, but actually not really. You simply would have no connection to such an individual. However, there is nothing to say that such an individual would not be an expression of Buddha activity. Compassion for their actions, not a revenge or motivated by negativity towards the person. That would be something very bad no?
Hitting a bad dog, doesn’t make the dog good, just makes it badder.
Shunning such people is compassionate.
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Re: Question Regarding Samaya Pollution

Post by Danny »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:51 am
Danny wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:43 am
Malcolm wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 12:57 pm
I shun samaya breakers, you should too. A samaya breaker is someone who hates their guru, hates their vajra siblings, lacks bodhicitta, etc. We also have a samaya to avoid such people.
With all that said, it sounds harsh, but actually not really. You simply would have no connection to such an individual. However, there is nothing to say that such an individual would not be an expression of Buddha activity. Compassion for their actions, not a revenge or motivated by negativity towards the person. That would be something very bad no?
Hitting a bad dog, doesn’t make the dog good, just makes it badder.
Shunning such people is compassionate.
Sure.
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Re: Question Regarding Samaya Pollution

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:51 am
Danny wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:43 am
Malcolm wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 12:57 pm
I shun samaya breakers, you should too. A samaya breaker is someone who hates their guru, hates their vajra siblings, lacks bodhicitta, etc. We also have a samaya to avoid such people.
With all that said, it sounds harsh, but actually not really. You simply would have no connection to such an individual. However, there is nothing to say that such an individual would not be an expression of Buddha activity. Compassion for their actions, not a revenge or motivated by negativity towards the person. That would be something very bad no?
Hitting a bad dog, doesn’t make the dog good, just makes it badder.
Shunning such people is compassionate.
:good:

However stupid or strange or cultish it may sound at first it is really true. I unfortunately know about cases of people hurting and physically abusing their vajra sibbling or cases of vajra sibling hating the sangha because the sangha refused to play his power games. It is really better to avoid such people and not even let them close to the group in such cases. They are really creating bad karma and shunning them prevents them from creating more of it.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

Formerly known as Miroku.
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Re: Question Regarding Samaya Pollution

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

Danny wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 12:54 am Maybe this is simplistic, but if one is engaging in refuge, bodhichitta in nice honest way, practitioner maintain even mind, where this type of issue arises?
this issues arise from one's own defects.
Pure and impure separation. I like this, but I don’t like that. That is attachment to ideas.
if one truly realized the vision might be. might.
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Re: Question Regarding Samaya Pollution

Post by pemachophel »

If one has truly broken samaya, it's simply impossible to realize the view.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
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