What is 'abandoning the Dharma'?

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LhakpaT
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What is 'abandoning the Dharma'?

Post by LhakpaT »

I've seen this mentioned before especially in relation to the karmic consequences. But what does it entail? Can someone who this applies to return to Dharma in this life? And if so, can we really talk about anyone abandoning the Dharma if they're still alive and might return to practising?
Danny
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Re: What is 'abandoning the Dharma'?

Post by Danny »

LhakpaT wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:26 pm I've seen this mentioned before especially in relation to the karmic consequences.
What do you mean? Like constantly tripping over your shoe laces and face planting into a door, or some other type of pratfall?
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LhakpaT
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Re: What is 'abandoning the Dharma'?

Post by LhakpaT »

Danny wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 11:44 pm
LhakpaT wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:26 pm I've seen this mentioned before especially in relation to the karmic consequences.
What do you mean? Like constantly tripping over your shoe laces and face planting into a door, or some other type of pratfall?
I'd imagine the karma of abandoning efforts towards realisation would mean no realisation and all the suffering that comes from that. At the very least. But my question is more to do with the nature of abandoning than the karmic consequences. For example, if someone returns to Dharma, they are now again working towards realisation, not so?

There are some examples of people who became great lamas who at some point seemed to abandon the Dharma yet returned to it and as I said became great teachers. So maybe I've just answered part of my own question :o
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Re: What is 'abandoning the Dharma'?

Post by Danny »

Yeah it goes like that sometimes. Dharma in terms of three jewels, people can come and go, or in teaching terms, there is no real coming or going, dharma in reference to creations of the mind? Basically I think it’s all relative to a view, an idea.
Today I can have a 100 ideas, tomorrow I could change all 100 ideas, all those would be a view.
Again no real coming and going.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: What is 'abandoning the Dharma'?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

What does “abandoning the dharma” mean?
Can you be more specific? Maybe refer to an example?
“Dharma” is simply the truth about how things are. It’s a truth that anyone can verify for themselves.

If you mean a monk returning to regular life,
or a Buddhist practitioner pushing meditation and other Buddhist Activities and concerns down on their list of priorities,
That’s not the same thing as, say,
renouncing Buddhism altogether.

A long time ago I had the good fortune to meet the Korean zen master Daehaeng Kun Sunim, and I asked her about “not really wanting to practice” and not being able to sit and meditate, just not really being into any of it, even, as a practitioner, wanting to avoid the whole “Buddhism thing”.

What she said was that, if you are a Buddhist, everything is dharma practice, even when you are not doing dharma practice. She said it’s like boiling water. When you boil water in a pot, big air bubbles appear and float to the surface. When you are practicing, that’s like the water, and when you aren’t practicing, or don’t like to sit and meditate (or do chanting or whatever your practice is) that’s like the air bubbles.
They are different, but they both just two aspects of the boiling. So, practicing Dharma or leaving Dharma, they are both Dharma.

...
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook develops outward insight.
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LhakpaT
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Re: What is 'abandoning the Dharma'?

Post by LhakpaT »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 12:36 pm
If you mean a monk returning to regular life,
or a Buddhist practitioner pushing meditation and other Buddhist Activities and concerns down on their list of priorities,
That’s not the same thing as, say,
renouncing Buddhism altogether.
I was thinking more along the lines of someone becoming an atheist, or on the other extreme a follower of an eternalist religion, before returning to the Dharma. I can imagine this is not something that happened a lot in the past but now, with the marketplace of religion and spiritual materialism and influence of media that simply did not exist in for example old Tibet, there has to be a lot more of this. People who may have been raised as Buddhists but rejected it as part of youthful rebellion but then returned to it (much as happens in other religions too), or someone who took refuge in the Buddha when younger but then became an atheist for a while, etc.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: What is 'abandoning the Dharma'?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

LhakpaT wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 1:28 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 12:36 pm
If you mean a monk returning to regular life,
or a Buddhist practitioner pushing meditation and other Buddhist Activities and concerns down on their list of priorities,
That’s not the same thing as, say,
renouncing Buddhism altogether.
I was thinking more along the lines of someone becoming an atheist, or on the other extreme a follower of an eternalist religion, before returning to the Dharma. I can imagine this is not something that happened a lot in the past but now, with the marketplace of religion and spiritual materialism and influence of media that simply did not exist in for example old Tibet, there has to be a lot more of this. People who may have been raised as Buddhists but rejected it as part of youthful rebellion but then returned to it (much as happens in other religions too), or someone who took refuge in the Buddha when younger but then became an atheist for a while, etc.
Well, a Buddhist can be an atheist,
But an atheist can’t be a Buddhist.

Many teachers, Kalu Rinpoche, for example, make a distinction between Being a Buddhist as part of a family cultural tradition and one who takes refuge out of a desire for enlightenment
EMPTIFUL.
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Re: What is 'abandoning the Dharma'?

Post by pemachophel »

Abandoning the Dharma means to leave the Dharma and stop practicing and believing in it as a refuge.

Although Vajrasattva purifies all negative karma, the following mantra is specific for purifying the negative karma of having left the Dharma.

Sarvavid Vairochana Mantra

OM NA-MO BHA-GA-WA-TE
SAR-WA DUR-GA-TE PA-RI SHO-DHA-NI RA-DZA-YA
TA-THA-GA-TA-YA
AR-HA-TE SAM-YAK-SAM BUD-DHA-YA
TADYA-THA
OM SHO-DHA-NI SHO-DHA-NI
SAR-WA PA-PAM BI-SHO-DHA-NI
SHU-DHE BI-SHU-DHE
SAR-WA KAR-MA A-WA-RA-NA BI-SHO-DHA-NI SO-HA


By merely seeing this mantra – let alone reciting it –, one purifies the karma of having given up the Dharma.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
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LhakpaT
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Re: What is 'abandoning the Dharma'?

Post by LhakpaT »

pemachophel wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 4:34 pm Abandoning the Dharma means to leave the Dharma and stop practicing and believing in it as a refuge.

Although Vajrasattva purifies all negative karma, the following mantra is specific for purifying the negative karma of having left the Dharma.

Sarvavid Vairochana Mantra

OM NA-MO BHA-GA-WA-TE
SAR-WA DUR-GA-TE PA-RI SHO-DHA-NI RA-DZA-YA
TA-THA-GA-TA-YA
AR-HA-TE SAM-YAK-SAM BUD-DHA-YA
TADYA-THA
OM SHO-DHA-NI SHO-DHA-NI
SAR-WA PA-PAM BI-SHO-DHA-NI
SHU-DHE BI-SHU-DHE
SAR-WA KAR-MA A-WA-RA-NA BI-SHO-DHA-NI SO-HA


By merely seeing this mantra – let alone reciting it –, one purifies the karma of having given up the Dharma.
Thank you, lama :bow:
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Re: What is 'abandoning the Dharma'?

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

pemachophel wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 4:34 pm Abandoning the Dharma means to leave the Dharma and stop practicing and believing in it as a refuge.

Although Vajrasattva purifies all negative karma, the following mantra is specific for purifying the negative karma of having left the Dharma.

Sarvavid Vairochana Mantra

OM NA-MO BHA-GA-WA-TE
SAR-WA DUR-GA-TE PA-RI SHO-DHA-NI RA-DZA-YA
TA-THA-GA-TA-YA
AR-HA-TE SAM-YAK-SAM BUD-DHA-YA
TADYA-THA
OM SHO-DHA-NI SHO-DHA-NI
SAR-WA PA-PAM BI-SHO-DHA-NI
SHU-DHE BI-SHU-DHE
SAR-WA KAR-MA A-WA-RA-NA BI-SHO-DHA-NI SO-HA


By merely seeing this mantra – let alone reciting it –, one purifies the karma of having given up the Dharma.
:bow:
pemachophel
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Re: What is 'abandoning the Dharma'?

Post by pemachophel »

You're welcome Lhakpa.

I know something about leaving the Dharma since I left it twice. Once after six years and once again after 19 years. Both times I left it because of lack of true, sincere, deep renunciation of samsara and problems with faith in the same Teacher Who was pushing me and my family very hard. The first time I came back to the Dharma, I felt like I was roped and had no choice in the matter. So I continued with all the same wrong ideas and motivations. The second time, I started over entirely.

Anyway, although leaving the Dharma is said to be a very heavy bad karma, it may be necessary, just as it is sometimes necessary to rebreak a broken bone that is not healing properly. Bottom line, the one good quality of bad karma is that it can be purified, and so can the bad karma of leaving the Dharma.

BTW, Sarvid Vaichana's name in Tibetan is Kunrig. So this mantra is known as Kunrig's mantra.

Good luck & best wishes.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: What is 'abandoning the Dharma'?

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

pemachophel wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 9:21 pm You're welcome Lhakpa.

I know something about leaving the Dharma since I left it twice. Once after six years and once again after 19 years. Both times I left it because of lack of true, sincere, deep renunciation of samsara and problems with faith in the same Teacher Who was pushing me and my family very hard. The first time I came back to the Dharma, I felt like I was roped and had no choice in the matter. So I continued with all the same wrong ideas and motivations. The second time, I started over entirely.

Anyway, although leaving the Dharma is said to be a very heavy bad karma, it may be necessary, just as it is sometimes necessary to rebreak a broken bone that is not healing properly. Bottom line, the one good quality of bad karma is that it can be purified, and so can the bad karma of leaving the Dharma.

BTW, Sarvid Vaichana's name in Tibetan is Kunrig. So this mantra is known as Kunrig's mantra.

Good luck & best wishes.
Pema-la you should write an autobiography. I think your life could be an extremely valuable and inspiring example for us westerners and could be invaluable part of history since you are part of the first dharma generation in the west.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

Formerly known as Miroku.
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Re: What is 'abandoning the Dharma'?

Post by GrapeLover »

Könchok Thrinley wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:55 pm
pemachophel wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 9:21 pm You're welcome Lhakpa.

I know something about leaving the Dharma since I left it twice. Once after six years and once again after 19 years. Both times I left it because of lack of true, sincere, deep renunciation of samsara and problems with faith in the same Teacher Who was pushing me and my family very hard. The first time I came back to the Dharma, I felt like I was roped and had no choice in the matter. So I continued with all the same wrong ideas and motivations. The second time, I started over entirely.

Anyway, although leaving the Dharma is said to be a very heavy bad karma, it may be necessary, just as it is sometimes necessary to rebreak a broken bone that is not healing properly. Bottom line, the one good quality of bad karma is that it can be purified, and so can the bad karma of leaving the Dharma.

BTW, Sarvid Vaichana's name in Tibetan is Kunrig. So this mantra is known as Kunrig's mantra.

Good luck & best wishes.
Pema-la you should write an autobiography. I think your life could be an extremely valuable and inspiring example for us westerners and could be invaluable part of history since you are part of the first dharma generation in the west.
I second this; or at least, I’d like to say that I’ve gained a lot from reading stories of your life on here as well as from your other precious advice.
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Re: What is 'abandoning the Dharma'?

Post by pemachophel »

Fifteen years or so ago, I tried writing the story of my Dharma life. I developed anxiety disorder. Ha!

Also, I'd have to say things about other people who are still alive. So it's not gonna happen.

Gotta go do Protectors.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
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Re: What is 'abandoning the Dharma'?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

pemachophel wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 4:34 pm Abandoning the Dharma means to leave the Dharma and stop practicing and believing in it as a refuge.

Although Vajrasattva purifies all negative karma, the following mantra is specific for purifying the negative karma of having left the Dharma.

Sarvavid Vairochana Mantra

OM NA-MO BHA-GA-WA-TE
SAR-WA DUR-GA-TE PA-RI SHO-DHA-NI RA-DZA-YA
TA-THA-GA-TA-YA
AR-HA-TE SAM-YAK-SAM BUD-DHA-YA
TADYA-THA
OM SHO-DHA-NI SHO-DHA-NI
SAR-WA PA-PAM BI-SHO-DHA-NI
SHU-DHE BI-SHU-DHE
SAR-WA KAR-MA A-WA-RA-NA BI-SHO-DHA-NI SO-HA


By merely seeing this mantra – let alone reciting it –, one purifies the karma of having given up the Dharma.
If someone gives up the dharma, they wouldn’t then go about reading this, much less reciting this, would they?
To do so would mean one still believes in it.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook develops outward insight.
javier.espinoza.t
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Re: What is 'abandoning the Dharma'?

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

pemachophel wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 11:28 pm Fifteen years or so ago, I tried writing the story of my Dharma life. I developed anxiety disorder. Ha!

Also, I'd have to say things about other people who are still alive. So it's not gonna happen.

Gotta go do Protectors.
sad thing. i think your namthar would be of much more use than the fancy ones..
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Re: What is 'abandoning the Dharma'?

Post by Charlie123 »

javier.espinoza.t wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:47 am
pemachophel wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 11:28 pm Fifteen years or so ago, I tried writing the story of my Dharma life. I developed anxiety disorder. Ha!

Also, I'd have to say things about other people who are still alive. So it's not gonna happen.

Gotta go do Protectors.
sad thing. i think your namthar would be of much more use than the fancy ones..
I agree. The namthars of Western practitioners are quite helpful. For example:
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Re: What is 'abandoning the Dharma'?

Post by GrapeLover »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:13 am
pemachophel wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 4:34 pm Abandoning the Dharma means to leave the Dharma and stop practicing and believing in it as a refuge.

Although Vajrasattva purifies all negative karma, the following mantra is specific for purifying the negative karma of having left the Dharma.

Sarvavid Vairochana Mantra

OM NA-MO BHA-GA-WA-TE
SAR-WA DUR-GA-TE PA-RI SHO-DHA-NI RA-DZA-YA
TA-THA-GA-TA-YA
AR-HA-TE SAM-YAK-SAM BUD-DHA-YA
TADYA-THA
OM SHO-DHA-NI SHO-DHA-NI
SAR-WA PA-PAM BI-SHO-DHA-NI
SHU-DHE BI-SHU-DHE
SAR-WA KAR-MA A-WA-RA-NA BI-SHO-DHA-NI SO-HA


By merely seeing this mantra – let alone reciting it –, one purifies the karma of having given up the Dharma.
If someone gives up the dharma, they wouldn’t then go about reading this, much less reciting this, would they?
To do so would mean one still believes in it.
You could still happen to see it, but I’d expect it’s mostly to help entirely purify any negative karma accrued even if you have since returned to the Dharma, as lama-la did.
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Re: What is 'abandoning the Dharma'?

Post by pemachophel »

The mantra is for people who have abandoned the Dharma in the past, have seen the error their ways, who regret, and want a method to purify the negative karma.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
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