Ngakpas everywhere!

Forum for discussion of Tibetan Buddhism. Questions specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
Malcolm
Posts: 33372
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Malcolm »

jake wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:34 pm
Danny wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:32 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:01 pm

Well, there is such a thing as cultural appropriation and it can be quite racist. For example:

Image
They should teach bury my heart at wounded knee in schools.
It was required reading for me in 10th grade, public school.

Let's get back to topic folks. :)
It's part of the topic.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
Varis
Posts: 322
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:09 am

Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Varis »

Grigoris wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:31 am It is more a case, in this thread, of people seeing what they want to see.
The passive aggressive jabs are really impressive. Keep 'em up. :applause:
I will leave you serious lay practitioners to further deconstruct thousands of years of tradition based on your ignorance of the tradition and aversion of all things not based in the Western Enlightenment tradition.
Ah yes, as a person of color, I am clearly adverse to everything non-Western European (including myself!). Thank you for the eval, where should I leave my payment?
User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 21590
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Grigoris »

Varis wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 1:58 pmAh yes, as a person of color, I am clearly adverse to everything non-Western European (including myself!). Thank you for the eval, where should I leave my payment?
As a person of colour you can be ignorant of other people's culture and enamored of the Western Enlightenment tradition. You can even hate your own culture and the colour of your skin. I am sure you are aware of this.

So I fail to see your point.

As for the payment: please feel free to donate it to any official Ngakpa organisation.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
User avatar
Mantrik
Former staff member
Posts: 2240
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:55 pm
Contact:

Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Mantrik »

So, in conclusion then:

It varies.

The ordination, the dress and even the very definition.

A very strange thread where everyone has agreed that it is OK to be a sincere practitioner and keep samaya in whatever form is appropriate to each Lama's wishes, yet some have decided to be offended and scream about whatever it was nobody actually wrote.
http://www.khyung.com ཁྲོཾ

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
Varis
Posts: 322
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:09 am

Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Varis »

Grigoris wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 2:59 pm As a person of colour you can be ignorant of other people's culture and enamored of the Western Enlightenment tradition. You can even hate your own culture and the colour of your skin. I am sure you are aware of this.
If you'd like to accuse me of cooning now, please say it plainly. I am not enamored by Western culture, I am highly critical of it.

I don't think you need to be a ngakpa, with all the empowerments that come along with that in the Nyingma tradition, to be a serious lay practitioner. This does not mean that I'm averse to Tibetan culture or ngakpas.
If you feel that you do, that's your prerogative.
User avatar
Fa Dao
Posts: 1026
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2011 5:42 pm

Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Fa Dao »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:01 pm
Fa Dao wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:14 am This will probably raise some hackles around here but the whole idea of "cultural appropriation" is simply one of the most ridiculous things Ive heard in a very long time...And that now some go so far as calling it "racist" is beyond mind boggling...
Well, there is such a thing as cultural appropriation and it can be quite racist. For example:

Image
yeaaahh..heres the thing man..I live in New Mexico and know LOTS of Natives..have been invited to dances etc...most that watch football..yep you guessed it, the Redskins are their TEAM!! I have not found one Native yet that has been in ANY way offended, outraged what have you by the WA Redskins...
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
Norwegian
Posts: 1998
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:36 pm

Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Norwegian »

Fa Dao wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:20 pm yeaaahh..heres the thing man..I live in New Mexico and know LOTS of Natives..have been invited to dances etc...most that watch football..yep you guessed it, the Redskins are their TEAM!! I have not found one Native yet that has been in ANY way offended, outraged what have you by the WA Redskins...
Here's just some Native Americans who are or have been actively opposed to the name: Shermane Alexie, Clyde Bellecourt, Ben Nighthorse Campbell, Vine Deloria Jr., Kevin Gover, Suzan Shown Harjo, Russell Means, etc.

Here's a pic of a protest (You can take a look at the people and their ethnicity if you like):
Image
(There are many more pics like this if you're interested)
"The Guru is the Buddha, the Guru is the Dharma,
The Guru is the Sangha too,
The Guru is Śrī Heruka.
The All-Creating King is the Guru."

-- The Secret Assembly Tantra
User avatar
PeterC
Posts: 2878
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:38 pm

Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by PeterC »

Mantrik wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:07 pm So, in conclusion then:

It varies.

The ordination, the dress and even the very definition.

A very strange thread where everyone has agreed that it is OK to be a sincere practitioner and keep samaya in whatever form is appropriate to each Lama's wishes, yet some have decided to be offended and scream about whatever it was nobody actually wrote.
But this is the internet. We all have the inviolable right to feel outraged about, well, pretty much anything we choose.

I don't think it's inconsistent to respect those who wear the zen as a samaya object, and also to dislike it being worn by those who don't have the relevant vows but use it as a form of dharma cosplay. But really life is too short to care about what other people wear.
Cinnabar
Posts: 131
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:59 pm

Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Cinnabar »

I'm back to my original question: Why is this always such a hot topic?

The reality of some people with vows wearing robes while some people with vows not wearing robes hardly seems challenging.

Not controversial enough for it to be a perennial subject of debate.

There has to be a deeper thing going on here...?
Norwegian
Posts: 1998
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:36 pm

Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Norwegian »

Cinnabar wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:53 pm I'm back to my original question: Why is this always such a hot topic?

The reality of some people with vows wearing robes while some people with vows not wearing robes hardly seems challenging.

Not controversial enough for it to be a perennial subject of debate.

There has to be a deeper thing going on here...?
I don't really know the answer to be honest. But ngakpas for some reason has become a sort of special mythologized class here in the West. For example, why isn't the ideal of the hidden yogi viewed with the same amount of interest and excitement?
"The Guru is the Buddha, the Guru is the Dharma,
The Guru is the Sangha too,
The Guru is Śrī Heruka.
The All-Creating King is the Guru."

-- The Secret Assembly Tantra
Varis
Posts: 322
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:09 am

Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Varis »

Cinnabar wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:53 pm I'm back to my original question: Why is this always such a hot topic?
Practitioners on here are personally invested in these things, questioning those those traditions and practices will offend people.

Look at the recent discussion a couple months ago about the necessity of following the Tibetan calendar.
User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 21590
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Grigoris »

Mantrik wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:07 pmA very strange thread where everyone has agreed that it is OK to be a sincere practitioner and keep samaya in whatever form is appropriate to each Lama's wishes, yet some have decided to be offended and scream about whatever it was nobody actually wrote.
Varis wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 4:20 pmPractitioners on here are personally invested in these things, questioning those those traditions and practices will offend people.
unimpressed.png
unimpressed.png (333.99 KiB) Viewed 960 times
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Danny
Posts: 606
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:43 pm

Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Danny »

Varis wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 4:20 pm
Cinnabar wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:53 pm I'm back to my original question: Why is this always such a hot topic?
Practitioners on here are personally invested in these things, questioning those those traditions and practices will offend people.

Look at the recent discussion a couple months ago about the necessity of following the Tibetan calendar.
It’s a drama wheel class in being pedantic.
User avatar
heart
Posts: 5089
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by heart »

Norwegian wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 4:10 pm
Cinnabar wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:53 pm I'm back to my original question: Why is this always such a hot topic?

The reality of some people with vows wearing robes while some people with vows not wearing robes hardly seems challenging.

Not controversial enough for it to be a perennial subject of debate.

There has to be a deeper thing going on here...?
I don't really know the answer to be honest. But ngakpas for some reason has become a sort of special mythologized class here in the West. For example, why isn't the ideal of the hidden yogi viewed with the same amount of interest and excitement?
It is, but no one notice it. :smile:

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Norwegian
Posts: 1998
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:36 pm

Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Norwegian »

heart wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 6:30 pm
Norwegian wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 4:10 pm
Cinnabar wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:53 pm I'm back to my original question: Why is this always such a hot topic?

The reality of some people with vows wearing robes while some people with vows not wearing robes hardly seems challenging.

Not controversial enough for it to be a perennial subject of debate.

There has to be a deeper thing going on here...?
I don't really know the answer to be honest. But ngakpas for some reason has become a sort of special mythologized class here in the West. For example, why isn't the ideal of the hidden yogi viewed with the same amount of interest and excitement?
It is, but no one notice it. :smile:

/magnus
:twothumbsup:
"The Guru is the Buddha, the Guru is the Dharma,
The Guru is the Sangha too,
The Guru is Śrī Heruka.
The All-Creating King is the Guru."

-- The Secret Assembly Tantra
User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 21590
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Grigoris »

boring.jpg
boring.jpg (90.48 KiB) Viewed 826 times
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Malcolm
Posts: 33372
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Malcolm »

Fa Dao wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:20 pm yeaaahh..heres the thing man..I live in New Mexico and know LOTS of Natives..have been invited to dances etc...most that watch football..yep you guessed it, the Redskins are their TEAM!! I have not found one Native yet that has been in ANY way offended, outraged what have you by the WA Redskins...
You have not looked very hard then:



https://www.theonefeather.com/2020/07/i ... -and-logo/
Indian Country reacts to retiring of Redskins name and logo

The Washington NFL organization announced on the morning of Monday, July 13 that it was retiring its Redskins name and logo. Following are comments and statements from leaders and organizations throughout Indian Country on this decision:

United South and Eastern Tribes (USET) President Kirk Francis
“USET SPF is encouraged and heartened that, at long last, this disparaging and racist word will no longer be used in professional sports. We extend our deep gratitude to all the advocates and allies who never wavered in their efforts to achieve today’s win. While it should have been relegated to America’s racist past long ago, we welcome this change as an opportunity for education, growth, and reconciliation, as the nation acknowledges its historic and ongoing shameful acts against tribal nations and Native people. It is our hope that the team’s new name and logo will truly reflect our evolution as a society. Bottom line, our people and cultures are not mascots and the time is long past due for us to be properly respected, not only within sports teams, but in all aspects.”

National Congress of American Indians
“Today is a day for all Native people to celebrate. We thank the generations of tribal nations, leaders, and activists who worked for decades to make this day possible. We commend the Washington NFL team for eliminating a brand that disrespected, demeaned, and stereotyped all Native people, and we call on all other sports teams and corporate brands to retire all caricatures of Native people that they use as their mascots. We are not mascots – we are Native people, citizens of more than 500 tribal nations who have stood strong for millennia and overcome countless challenges to reach this pivotal moment in time when we can help transform America into the just, equitable, and compassionate country our children deserve.”

Navajo Nation President Jonathan Nez and Navajo Nation Vice President Myron Lizer
“For generations, this team name and logo has misrepresented the true history and events that define the term ‘redskins’. History tells us that the term ‘redskins’ derived from bounty hunters, which identified Indigenous peoples by the color of their skin. Bounties were offered for the murder of Native Americans. Bounty hunters killed Native Americans, referenced as ‘redskins’, and brought to the market the stained, bloodied scalps in exchange for payment. This is the tragic and disgusting history that the world is not often told.”

Navajo Nation Council Speaker Seth Damon
“The changing of a national football franchise’s name is no small accomplishment. Today, we commend the work of Suzan Shown Harjo, Amanda Blackhorse, and others that have continued to push for this moment since 1992. The term had become so normalized to American society that it forgot, or thought it could dismiss, the violent and bloody history behind the very word. Throughout the years, we’ve continued to hope that a retired Washington ‘Redskins’ team name and logo could become a symbol of greater understanding of the misrepresentation that many Native nations continue to face today. No amount of symbolic ‘honoring’ can undo decades of cultural appropriation that have followed on the coat tails of centuries of extermination and exploitation.”

Ho-Chunk Nation President Marlon White Eagle
“We thank FedEx, Nike, corporate sponsors and all of those involved in this historic change. As Indigenous people inherent to this land called the United States of America, we have for a long time been portrayed and characterized in a negative stereotype. We are not mascots. The name change is long overdue.”

Billy Mills, Olympic Gold Medalist and National Spokesperson for Running Strong for American Indian Youth
“It’s never too late to do the right thing. Now, I urge the Washington football team to truly turn the page and pick a new name and logo with no exploitation of Native people. They are on the verge of righting a historic wrong. What they do next will define this team’s legacy.”

Ponca Tribe of Nebraska
“The Ponca Tribe of Nebraska is encouraged that this long-overdue moment has arrived, with one professional sports franchise abandoning a mascot that perpetuated a racial slur and another examining how Native American mascots are offensive and have no place in our society. Using Native Americans as sport mascots and our deeply meaningful symbols, including headdresses, are inappropriate. Advancing troubling stereotype in popular culture and society, via sports, diminishes our personhood. The Ponca Tribe of Nebraska is hopeful that other sports franchises will make the right decision by ceasing their use of derogatory and offensive mascots, and thereby examining their own use of mascots, chants, symbols, and themes that disparage our people.”

Crystal Echohawk, IllumiNative executive director
“This is 30 years in the making, and we honor the leaders of this movement, Suzan Harjo and Amanda Blackhorse, and important contributors such as Dr. Stephanie Fryberg, First Peoples Worldwide, and thousands of other Native organizations, people, and tribal leaders who have fought for this. Tomorrow, our fight continues. We will not rest until the offensive use of Native imagery, logos, and names are eradicated from professional, collegiate, and K-12 sports. The time is now to stand in solidarity and declare that racism will not be tolerated.
There are so many more, and the WSJ reports that 67 percent of people who identify as native find the name offensive, so...maybe you know the other 33 percent...
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
Malcolm
Posts: 33372
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Malcolm »

heart wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 6:30 pm
Norwegian wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 4:10 pm
Cinnabar wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:53 pm I'm back to my original question: Why is this always such a hot topic?

The reality of some people with vows wearing robes while some people with vows not wearing robes hardly seems challenging.

Not controversial enough for it to be a perennial subject of debate.

There has to be a deeper thing going on here...?
I don't really know the answer to be honest. But ngakpas for some reason has become a sort of special mythologized class here in the West. For example, why isn't the ideal of the hidden yogi viewed with the same amount of interest and excitement?
It is, but no one notice it. :smile:

/magnus
Heh.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
User avatar
Tongnyid Dorje
Posts: 162
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:16 pm

Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Tongnyid Dorje »

Interresting thread.

I understand the "ngakpa" as all kinds of things, from ritual expert, to really strongly practicing person/yogi. I think here in West its mainly the second one. Or at least it should be.

To call someone fake ngakpa just bc he hasnt done three yrs retreat, or whatever reason, is a bit stupid. Many ppl call themselves "dzogchenpas" and it simple means they are practicing dzogchen (mostly in DC). In my opinion, even if you just pretend to be a ngakpa by wearing robes, its not that bad, cos while you are pretending, you must behave yourself, no? :smile: Of course, if you dont pretend just to make money, or have any bad intentions.

As Dilgo K.R. once said, if you recieved Refuge vows, you can wear Dharma robes, there is nothing wrong in it. If you will make your practice stronger, then its better, no? And also, as my mostly kind lama commented, when you wear ngakpa robes, its your vajra armour, you behave yourself, you are more aware, you do less stupid thing, dont go in bar and so on....

Better dont look down on ppl wearing robes, you dont see theirs qualities. And also, as a Patrul Rinpoche said, you dont use Dharma as a window, to look and judge others, you use it as a mirror.

:namaste:
SilenceMonkey
Posts: 322
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:54 am

Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Mantrik wrote: Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:51 pm
Grigoris wrote: Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:22 am
The goal of a ngakpa/ngakma practice is to achieve mantra siddhi. The vows are the framework within which it is achieved.

The goal of a monastic is enlightenment. The vows are the framework within which it is achieved.

Are we going to discuss seriously or are you just going to keep making statements established on your baseless aversion and ignorance of ngakpa/ngakma?
An interesting interview in that context, and re. dress and the LARP context.
https://www.shambhala.com/snowlion_arti ... -rinpoche/

''Simply, ngakpas do what they do not only for the present moment’s well-being but also for future enlightenment.
Thank you everyone for an interesting discussion! And thank you Mantrik especially for this interview with Khetsun Rinpoche.

It seems if a Ngakpa is not practicing for their own enlightenment he or she is no different than a shaman. Well... most shamans in other traditions don’t have so many samaya!

One teacher of mine is of the opinions that if one can’t do certain things... like be able to drink all day without getting drunk... then one should not even be calling oneself a tantric practitioner (his English translation for Ngakpa).
Post Reply

Return to “Tibetan Buddhism”