Ngakpas everywhere!

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Fa Dao
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Fa Dao »

This will probably raise some hackles around here but the whole idea of "cultural appropriation" is simply one of the most ridiculous things Ive heard in a very long time. Most people when they see something that they think is really cool will want to emulate it in some way...thats just how humans are and how we learn..we're hardwired that way. This is done not out of wanting to rip off a culture but because it is greatly admired...how does that old saying go? something like.."Emulation is the highest form of flattery" meh..something like that. I just don't see what the problem is in liking a particular thing about a culture, in whole or part, and wanting to make it part of you. And that now some go so far as calling it "racist" is beyond mind boggling...
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
yagmort
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by yagmort »

PeterC wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:45 am It’s from a more recent terma cycle but a major one.
thanks Peter. if it's ok to ask, can you name the cycle ?
humble.student
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by humble.student »

Mantrik wrote: Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:15 pm
Grigoris wrote: Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:48 pm
Charlie123 wrote: Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:35 pmYou know, the whole idea that someone needs to authorize people to give empowerments / teachings is a little strange. I think part of the reason why it so prevalent in the West is bc TB has been transmitted here via big institutions. Big institutions are into authorization, levels, titles, etc.

Looking at the available English translations of the traditional texts that list the qualifications of a teacher, I have never actually found "authorization" as a qualification.

That isn't to say that someone's teacher telling them to teach is meaningless; it obviously isn't. I just think people put too much emphasis on it.

It is a way of passing off our responsibility to examine teachers ourselves. Also, we are big time into authorizations of all sizes and shapes in all contexts in the West.
And this kiddies, is exactly how cults start.

Ever heard of this thing called lineage? Do you know why it is important?
There is a serious point, though.
Have a dream terma these days and set up a lineage, ordain your Ngagchangphangadingdongs and you're a faker.
Do it 400 years ago and an authenticity builds with antiquity, even though at the time it may have been seen as just as dodgy.
This is a bit easy to say. Authenticity builds with results, no?
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Mantrik
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

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humble.student wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:41 am
Mantrik wrote: Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:15 pm
Grigoris wrote: Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:48 pm And this kiddies, is exactly how cults start.

Ever heard of this thing called lineage? Do you know why it is important?
There is a serious point, though.
Have a dream terma these days and set up a lineage, ordain your Ngagchangphangadingdongs and you're a faker.
Do it 400 years ago and an authenticity builds with antiquity, even though at the time it may have been seen as just as dodgy.
This is a bit easy to say. Authenticity builds with results, no?
Of course. That's how a good lineage survives. My point was that at the start it doesn't impress many unless of course the terton already has an established reputation.
http://www.khyung.com ཁྲོཾ

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Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

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Grigoris
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Grigoris »

Varis wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 5:35 amIt's one of those things that can be easily be mistaken for appropriation by those looking from the outside in.
It is more a case, in this thread, of people seeing what they want to see.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Charlie123
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Charlie123 »

Fa Dao wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:14 am This will probably raise some hackles around here but the whole idea of "cultural appropriation" is simply one of the most ridiculous things Ive heard in a very long time. Most people when they see something that they think is really cool will want to emulate it in some way...thats just how humans are and how we learn..we're hardwired that way. This is done not out of wanting to rip off a culture but because it is greatly admired...how does that old saying go? something like.."Emulation is the highest form of flattery" meh..something like that. I just don't see what the problem is in liking a particular thing about a culture, in whole or part, and wanting to make it part of you. And that now some go so far as calling it "racist" is beyond mind boggling...
Indeed. It is a normal result of different cultures rubbing up against each other.

On the other hand, sometimes people will exploit and commercialize aspects of a culture that is not their own solely in order to make $$$. This cheapens rich traditions and is sad. Also, there are people who will adopt aspects of another culture as a joke. This is genuinely shitty.
Last edited by Charlie123 on Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PeterC
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by PeterC »

Mantrik wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:18 am
humble.student wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:41 am
Mantrik wrote: Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:15 pm
There is a serious point, though.
Have a dream terma these days and set up a lineage, ordain your Ngagchangphangadingdongs and you're a faker.
Do it 400 years ago and an authenticity builds with antiquity, even though at the time it may have been seen as just as dodgy.
This is a bit easy to say. Authenticity builds with results, no?
Of course. That's how a good lineage survives. My point was that at the start it doesn't impress many unless of course the terton already has an established reputation.
Uh - Dudjom Lingpa?
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Grigoris
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Grigoris »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 2:12 am
Cinnabar wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 1:20 am
Malcolm wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:57 am Dharma teachers should not be concerned with what clothes their students wear, in my opinion, unless the students are indecently dressed or wear too much damn patchouli ( I.e any). Ymmv.
Nor should students be concerned with what clothes their dharma siblings wear.
Agreed.
+1

Well, I am done with this thread.

Now you will excuse me as I have to go off and engage in a culturally appropriating role play where I pretend to be a Tibetan with mantra siddhi, I will leave you serious lay practitioners to further deconstruct thousands of years of tradition based on your ignorance of the tradition and aversion of all things not based in the Western Enlightenment tradition.

Have fun! :hi:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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heart
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by heart »

PeterC wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:45 am
pemachophel wrote: Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:10 pm Yagmort,

In Jigme Lingpa's personal Guru yoga it says to visualize Him as:

གོས་དཀར་མཐོན་མཐིང་ཟུར་ཕུད་ལྡན་པའི་རྩེརཿ

gö kar tönting zurpü denpé tser

Dressed in white and dark-blue and with your hair in a top-knot,

My Teacher, the consummate ngakpa, Lama Dawa Chodrak, often wore white robe, white dranchu, and a dark blue shirt.
In one of my guru yoga practices the guru is also visualized in a blue shirt. It’s from a more recent terma cycle but a major one.
Vimalamitra always have a blue shirt.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Grigoris
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Grigoris »

heart wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:10 amVimalamitra always have a blue shirt.

/magnus
I have a thangka given to me by LOTR with Longchenpa wearing a blue shirt.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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PeterC
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by PeterC »

heart wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:10 am
PeterC wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:45 am
pemachophel wrote: Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:10 pm Yagmort,

In Jigme Lingpa's personal Guru yoga it says to visualize Him as:

གོས་དཀར་མཐོན་མཐིང་ཟུར་ཕུད་ལྡན་པའི་རྩེརཿ

gö kar tönting zurpü denpé tser

Dressed in white and dark-blue and with your hair in a top-knot,

My Teacher, the consummate ngakpa, Lama Dawa Chodrak, often wore white robe, white dranchu, and a dark blue shirt.
In one of my guru yoga practices the guru is also visualized in a blue shirt. It’s from a more recent terma cycle but a major one.
Vimalamitra always have a blue shirt.

/magnus
Some images of him have him wearing white robes no shirt, I think. There are a few Indian figures that are sometimes depicted with a blue shirt. May be to do with association with wrathful yidams.
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by heart »

Grigoris wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:19 am
heart wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:10 amVimalamitra always have a blue shirt.

/magnus
I have a thangka given to me by LOTR with Longchenpa wearing a blue shirt.
Yes, also Guru Rinpoche have it sometimes.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Mantrik
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Mantrik »

PeterC wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:49 am
Mantrik wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:18 am
humble.student wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:41 am

This is a bit easy to say. Authenticity builds with results, no?
Of course. That's how a good lineage survives. My point was that at the start it doesn't impress many unless of course the terton already has an established reputation.
Uh - Dudjom Lingpa?
Exactly. At the start, not believed, or so I read.
http://www.khyung.com ཁྲོཾ

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
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PeterC
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by PeterC »

Mantrik wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 10:51 am
PeterC wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:49 am
Mantrik wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:18 am
Of course. That's how a good lineage survives. My point was that at the start it doesn't impress many unless of course the terton already has an established reputation.
Uh - Dudjom Lingpa?
Exactly. At the start, not believed, or so I read.
Yes - I misread your comment. Dudjom Lingpa is a good example of a terton who initially was not accepted due to lack of a reputation, which he later acquired throuh his students' achievements. Chogkyur Lingpa too, though his reputation was acquired initially by endorsement.
yagmort
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by yagmort »

where is the statue of Dudjom Lingpa in blue skirt.

aside from Lama Dawa Chödrak Rinpoche as mentioned by Pema Chopel i got it blue shirt is not that common among ngagpa practitioners ?
Malcolm
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Malcolm »

yagmort wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 11:47 am where is the statue of Dudjom Lingpa in blue skirt.

aside from Lama Dawa Chödrak Rinpoche as mentioned by Pema Chopel i got it blue shirt is not that common among ngagpa practitioners ?
Every ngakpa has their own style.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
Malcolm
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Malcolm »

Fa Dao wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:14 am This will probably raise some hackles around here but the whole idea of "cultural appropriation" is simply one of the most ridiculous things Ive heard in a very long time...And that now some go so far as calling it "racist" is beyond mind boggling...
Well, there is such a thing as cultural appropriation and it can be quite racist. For example:

Image
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
Danny
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Danny »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 11:58 am
yagmort wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 11:47 am where is the statue of Dudjom Lingpa in blue skirt.

aside from Lama Dawa Chödrak Rinpoche as mentioned by Pema Chopel i got it blue shirt is not that common among ngagpa practitioners ?
Every ngakpa has their own style.

Right, uniform, or conformity is a pretty bland world to live in. Why not enjoy differences in all its diverse aspects. Controlling what people wear and do only leads to a form of despotism of sorts.
Danny
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by Danny »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:01 pm
Fa Dao wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:14 am This will probably raise some hackles around here but the whole idea of "cultural appropriation" is simply one of the most ridiculous things Ive heard in a very long time...And that now some go so far as calling it "racist" is beyond mind boggling...
Well, there is such a thing as cultural appropriation and it can be quite racist. For example:

Image
They should teach bury my heart at wounded knee in schools.
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jake
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Re: Ngakpas everywhere!

Post by jake »

Danny wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:32 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:01 pm
Fa Dao wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:14 am This will probably raise some hackles around here but the whole idea of "cultural appropriation" is simply one of the most ridiculous things Ive heard in a very long time...And that now some go so far as calling it "racist" is beyond mind boggling...
Well, there is such a thing as cultural appropriation and it can be quite racist. For example:

Image
They should teach bury my heart at wounded knee in schools.
It was required reading for me in 10th grade, public school.

Let's get back to topic folks. :)
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