Vajrasattva Question(s)

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sangyey
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Vajrasattva Question(s)

Post by sangyey »

Hello,

I was wondering what class of Tantra Vajrasattva is associated with? I’m assuming he is Vajra Lineage?

Also isn’t there something like if you have received an initiation for a deity in one class of Tantra then you can self-generate or visualize yourself as any deity from that class?

Thank you.
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Ayu
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Re: Vajrasattva Question(s)

Post by Ayu »

Depends on the empowerment. There's Vajrasattva in Kriya Tantra (I think) and Anuttarayoga Tantra as well.
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Re: Vajrasattva Question(s)

Post by Tlalok »

sangyey wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:14 pm Also isn’t there something like if you have received an initiation for a deity in one class of Tantra then you can self-generate or visualize yourself as any deity from that class?
The only thing similar to this that I am aware of in Vajrayana is empowerment into a Shitro Mandala being authorization to self-visualize as any deity. But this is apparently only held in Nyingma, and I've never directly heard a lama mention it.
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Re: Vajrasattva Question(s)

Post by Malcolm »

Ayu wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:43 pm Depends on the empowerment. There's Vajrasattva in Kriya Tantra (I think) and Anuttarayoga Tantra as well.
Yoga tantra, not Kriya.
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Re: Vajrasattva Question(s)

Post by sangyey »

Is there a main differentiation as to how something is visualized in Yoga Tantra as to how it’s visualized in HYT?

Thank you.
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Re: Vajrasattva Question(s)

Post by tobes »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:13 pm
Ayu wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:43 pm Depends on the empowerment. There's Vajrasattva in Kriya Tantra (I think) and Anuttarayoga Tantra as well.
Yoga tantra, not Kriya.
I'm pretty sure I've heard of Gelugs offering Kriya Tantra Vajrasattva empowerments, but I'll have to check.
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Re: Vajrasattva Question(s)

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

tobes wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:23 am
Malcolm wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:13 pm
Ayu wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:43 pm Depends on the empowerment. There's Vajrasattva in Kriya Tantra (I think) and Anuttarayoga Tantra as well.
Yoga tantra, not Kriya.
I'm pretty sure I've heard of Gelugs offering Kriya Tantra Vajrasattva empowerments, but I'll have to check.
The single figure Karma Kagyu ngondro version with the legs uncrossed is Yoga Tantra.

Other traditions use yab-yum and single figure in full lotus for ngondro. I don’t know about them.
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Re: Vajrasattva Question(s)

Post by Varis »

It's said that if you have Kalachakra empowerment you can practice any diety. I don't know how true that is in practice though.
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Re: Vajrasattva Question(s)

Post by jmlee369 »

sangyey wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:14 pm Hello,

I was wondering what class of Tantra Vajrasattva is associated with? I’m assuming he is Vajra Lineage?

Also isn’t there something like if you have received an initiation for a deity in one class of Tantra then you can self-generate or visualize yourself as any deity from that class?

Thank you.
There are many different lineages of Vajrasattva, you will need to specify which Vajrasattva you are talking about to know which class (kriya, carya, yoga, anuttarayoga) of tantra the practice belongs to. The classification of which Buddha family (Tathagata, Lotus, Vajra family etc) is a division within the different classes of tantra. You can usually tell this based on which Buddha crowns the deity after the initiation is conferred in the sadhana.

Regarding self-generation, it is a general principle in Sakya and Gelug tantra that if you have received a great initiation (wang) for a deity of the same or higher class of tantra, then you can receive just a permission initiation (jenang) and self generate as the deity. You still need to receive the jenang before you self generate.
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Re: Vajrasattva Question(s)

Post by puggily »

What is the difference with Vajrasattva with and without consort?
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Re: Vajrasattva Question(s)

Post by lelopa »

puggily wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:48 pm What is the difference with Vajrasattva with and without consort?
do a short self-transformation with yab-yum and without & you'll find out one difference
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Re: Vajrasattva Question(s)

Post by Ayu »

lelopa wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:03 am
puggily wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:48 pm What is the difference with Vajrasattva with and without consort?
do a short self-transformation with yab-yum and without & you'll find out one difference

AFAIK, they are given through different empowerments. If you don't have both, it's possibly difficult to try them out and compair. And shortly said, I don't believe that one is 'better' than the other. It depends on time, place and person.
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Re: Vajrasattva Question(s)

Post by PeterC »

puggily wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:48 pm What is the difference with Vajrasattva with and without consort?
One head, two arms and two legs
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Re: Vajrasattva Question(s)

Post by lelopa »

Ayu wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:04 am
lelopa wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:03 am
puggily wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:48 pm What is the difference with Vajrasattva with and without consort?
do a short self-transformation with yab-yum and without & you'll find out one difference

AFAIK, they are given through different empowerments. If you don't have both, it's possibly difficult to try them out and compair. And shortly said, I don't believe that one is 'better' than the other. It depends on time, place and person.
If you have an empowerment, or not you can visualize all and everything..... especially to get a rough idea!
For some seconds.... to get a sensation -
it is not necessary to do a whole sadhana.

If it is a transgression, or not....or incorrect, or correct, or a samaya-break, or your head bursts, or the earth shatters....or...or.... is imho a little different discussion :shrug:
Sometimes I look at a yidam I never saw before I automatically (not really by will) do a very, very short self-transformation of this deity
- and I am still alive!
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Re: Vajrasattva Question(s)

Post by Ayu »

lelopa wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:10 am
Ayu wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:04 am
lelopa wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:03 am

do a short self-transformation with yab-yum and without & you'll find out one difference

AFAIK, they are given through different empowerments. If you don't have both, it's possibly difficult to try them out and compair. And shortly said, I don't believe that one is 'better' than the other. It depends on time, place and person.
If you have an empowerment, or not you can visualize all and everything..... especially to get a rough idea!
For some seconds.... to get a sensation -
it is not necessary to do a whole sadhana.

If it is a transgression, or not....or incorrect, or correct, or a samaya-break, or your head bursts, or the earth shatters....or...or.... is imho a little different discussion :shrug:
Sometimes I look at a yidam I never saw before I automatically (not really by will) do a very, very short self-transformation of this deity
- and I am still alive!
Well, that's your personal experience. It's not always appropriate to generalize personal experiences.
But I have to admit, I love empowerments. And I do get a better connection by practicing it for a while. Spontaneous feelings of being connected I had very very seldomly.
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Re: Vajrasattva Question(s)

Post by lelopa »

Ayu wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:23 pm
lelopa wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:10 am
Ayu wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:04 am


AFAIK, they are given through different empowerments. If you don't have both, it's possibly difficult to try them out and compair. And shortly said, I don't believe that one is 'better' than the other. It depends on time, place and person.
If you have an empowerment, or not you can visualize all and everything..... especially to get a rough idea!
For some seconds.... to get a sensation -
it is not necessary to do a whole sadhana.

If it is a transgression, or not....or incorrect, or correct, or a samaya-break, or your head bursts, or the earth shatters....or...or.... is imho a little different discussion :shrug:
Sometimes I look at a yidam I never saw before I automatically (not really by will) do a very, very short self-transformation of this deity
- and I am still alive!
Well, that's your personal experience. It's not always appropriate to generalize personal experiences.
But I have to admit, I love empowerments. And I do get a better connection by practicing it for a while. Spontaneous feelings of being connected I had very very seldomly.
Genralize personal experience???
Wow, it is very amazing what you read out of some posts
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Re: Vajrasattva Question(s)

Post by PeterC »

lelopa wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:44 am
Ayu wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:23 pm
lelopa wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:10 am

If you have an empowerment, or not you can visualize all and everything..... especially to get a rough idea!
For some seconds.... to get a sensation -
it is not necessary to do a whole sadhana.

If it is a transgression, or not....or incorrect, or correct, or a samaya-break, or your head bursts, or the earth shatters....or...or.... is imho a little different discussion :shrug:
Sometimes I look at a yidam I never saw before I automatically (not really by will) do a very, very short self-transformation of this deity
- and I am still alive!
Well, that's your personal experience. It's not always appropriate to generalize personal experiences.
But I have to admit, I love empowerments. And I do get a better connection by practicing it for a while. Spontaneous feelings of being connected I had very very seldomly.
Genralize personal experience???
Wow, it is very amazing what you read out of some posts
I think Ayu was saying, politely, that doing self-transformation into yidams you haven't seen before isn't something that teachers suggest, and probably isn't something we should encourage most people to do. If that's what was meant, I would agree with it
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Re: Vajrasattva Question(s)

Post by lelopa »

:thanks:
PeterC wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:37 am
lelopa wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:44 am
Ayu wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:23 pm
Well, that's your personal experience. It's not always appropriate to generalize personal experiences.
But I have to admit, I love empowerments. And I do get a better connection by practicing it for a while. Spontaneous feelings of being connected I had very very seldomly.
Genralize personal experience???
Wow, it is very amazing what you read out of some posts
I think Ayu was saying, politely, that doing self-transformation into yidams you haven't seen before isn't something that teachers suggest, and probably isn't something we should encourage most people to do. If that's what was meant, I would agree with it
First of all:
I think even the word "self-transformation" isn't appropriate, because it is more a short "imagine".
Imagine you are a Cheeseburger, or a car, or a Lincoln-statue.....I do not really compare this with self-transformation in Vajrayana-sence...
maybe that's the generalisation ??

A Lama Rinpoche gave the example I wrote above at a teaching-retreat and he didn't say: "first of all you must have the empowerment of Vajrasatva and the empowerment of VS-YabYum"

it was more as I wrote it: "do it and you'll see/feel the difference"
I was sure that I didn't encourage people to do self-transformations in Yidams they never saw before...
only this little "tip" which a Lama gave at a Dzogchen teaching....
but it seems it was too much.
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Re: Vajrasattva Question(s)

Post by Yeshe Dorje »

From a Gelug point of view, H.E. the 104th Ganden Tripa gave a Vajrasattva jenang in Austria last year that could be taken as HYT or kriya. I believe he also said it was a sort of 'general purpose' empowerment that could be used as a basis for practicing any specific form of Vajrasattva, for example Heruka Vajrasattva.
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Re: Vajrasattva Question(s)

Post by PeterC »

lelopa wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:05 am :thanks:
PeterC wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:37 am
lelopa wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:44 am

Genralize personal experience???
Wow, it is very amazing what you read out of some posts
I think Ayu was saying, politely, that doing self-transformation into yidams you haven't seen before isn't something that teachers suggest, and probably isn't something we should encourage most people to do. If that's what was meant, I would agree with it
First of all:
I think even the word "self-transformation" isn't appropriate, because it is more a short "imagine".
Imagine you are a Cheeseburger, or a car, or a Lincoln-statue.....I do not really compare this with self-transformation in Vajrayana-sence...
maybe that's the generalisation ??

A Lama Rinpoche gave the example I wrote above at a teaching-retreat and he didn't say: "first of all you must have the empowerment of Vajrasatva and the empowerment of VS-YabYum"

it was more as I wrote it: "do it and you'll see/feel the difference"
I was sure that I didn't encourage people to do self-transformations in Yidams they never saw before...
only this little "tip" which a Lama gave at a Dzogchen teaching....
but it seems it was too much.
That helps make it clearer. If you re-read your original comment, you can probably see how it could be misinterpreted. I'm pretty certain, however, that no lama would encourage self-visualization as Vajrasattva without the relevant empowerment - but I wasn't there so don't know exactly what he/she said.
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