Historically, how did people deal with severely disabled babies? How did they interpret the karmic consequence?

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Boomerang
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Historically, how did people deal with severely disabled babies? How did they interpret the karmic consequence?

Post by Boomerang »

If a baby had a disability that made independence impossible, for example severe mental retardation, how would Tibetans deal with it?

I would imagine everyone but the richest would have to leave the baby on the side of a mountain and let it succumb to the elements.

In Ancient Greece they would do that and say, "I didn't kill the baby. Nature did."

Would Tibetan people interpret this as karmically neutral, or would they say it's a karmic catch-22 where you have no choice but to kill a human?
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Re: Historically, how did people deal with severely disabled babies? How did they interpret the karmic consequence?

Post by Malcolm »

Boomerang wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 4:22 pm If a baby had a disability that made independence impossible, for example severe mental retardation, how would Tibetans deal with it?
As kindly as possible.
tkp67
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Re: Historically, how did people deal with severely disabled babies? How did they interpret the karmic consequence?

Post by tkp67 »

When I was fairly young I asked my mother how could there be a creator and have consequence such as disabled children.

Her response was immediate and was directly from her conscious.

"these children are a gift" and she went into her deep experience as a teacher working with disabled children. She never acknowledge the concept of creator because my statement was so off to her that she corrected me without hesitation. Their value was already substantiated, it was an absolute failure of consciousness to recognize this in the first place.

One of those things that always stayed with me.
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Re: Historically, how did people deal with severely disabled babies? How did they interpret the karmic consequence?

Post by Grigoris »

Boomerang wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 4:22 pmIn Ancient Greece they would do that and say, "I didn't kill the baby. Nature did."
What are you talking about? Only the Spartans did that and the Spartans were only one of 1,000 Ancient Greek city states.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Historically, how did people deal with severely disabled babies? How did they interpret the karmic consequence?

Post by LhakpaT »

Grigoris wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 5:17 pm
Boomerang wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 4:22 pmIn Ancient Greece they would do that and say, "I didn't kill the baby. Nature did."
What are you talking about? Only the Spartans did that and the Spartans were only one of 1,000 Ancient Greek city states.
What?! Next, you're gonna tell me the Greeks didn't all fight in slow motion and kick ambassadors into wells either!
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Re: Historically, how did people deal with severely disabled babies? How did they interpret the karmic consequence?

Post by Ayu »

I think, in history there were cruel parents and those who loved their children as well. Everything one can say about THE people in general must be true and false at the same time.
For the benefit and ease of all sentient beings. :heart:
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Re: Historically, how did people deal with severely disabled babies? How did they interpret the karmic consequence?

Post by Grigoris »

LhakpaT wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 5:25 pm
Grigoris wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 5:17 pm
Boomerang wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 4:22 pmIn Ancient Greece they would do that and say, "I didn't kill the baby. Nature did."
What are you talking about? Only the Spartans did that and the Spartans were only one of 1,000 Ancient Greek city states.
What?! Next, you're gonna tell me the Greeks didn't all fight in slow motion and kick ambassadors into wells either!
The only thing that is true in "300" is that all Greek men have six packs...
fat greek guy.jpg
fat greek guy.jpg (35.15 KiB) Viewed 1503 times
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Boomerang
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Re: Historically, how did people deal with severely disabled babies? How did they interpret the karmic consequence?

Post by Boomerang »

Grigoris wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 5:17 pm
Boomerang wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 4:22 pmIn Ancient Greece they would do that and say, "I didn't kill the baby. Nature did."
What are you talking about? Only the Spartans did that and the Spartans were only one of 1,000 Ancient Greek city states.
I apologize.
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Re: Historically, how did people deal with severely disabled babies? How did they interpret the karmic consequence?

Post by Dan74 »

Grigoris wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 5:40 pm
LhakpaT wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 5:25 pm
Grigoris wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 5:17 pm What are you talking about? Only the Spartans did that and the Spartans were only one of 1,000 Ancient Greek city states.
What?! Next, you're gonna tell me the Greeks didn't all fight in slow motion and kick ambassadors into wells either!
The only thing that is true in "300" is that all Greek men have six packs...

fat greek guy.jpg
I don't think a Dharma forum is an appropriate place to post semi-nude pictures of yourself. I mean you may be looking for love and that's fine, but is this really the right venue?
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Re: Historically, how did people deal with severely disabled babies? How did they interpret the karmic consequence?

Post by Malcolm »

Dan74 wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 8:02 pm
Grigoris wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 5:40 pm
LhakpaT wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 5:25 pm

What?! Next, you're gonna tell me the Greeks didn't all fight in slow motion and kick ambassadors into wells either!
The only thing that is true in "300" is that all Greek men have six packs...

fat greek guy.jpg
I don't think a Dharma forum is an appropriate place to post semi-nude pictures of yourself. I mean you may be looking for love and that's fine, but is this really the right venue?
How can you call that man half-nude? I mean, look at the Jesus bling.
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Re: Historically, how did people deal with severely disabled babies? How did they interpret the karmic consequence?

Post by Tenma »

Dan74 wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 8:02 pm
Grigoris wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 5:40 pm
LhakpaT wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 5:25 pm

What?! Next, you're gonna tell me the Greeks didn't all fight in slow motion and kick ambassadors into wells either!
The only thing that is true in "300" is that all Greek men have six packs...

fat greek guy.jpg
I don't think a Dharma forum is an appropriate place to post semi-nude pictures of yourself. I mean you may be looking for love and that's fine, but is this really the right venue?
That's not Greg. It's a random picture you can find on a 5 second search on Google.
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justsit
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Re: Historically, how did people deal with severely disabled babies? How did they interpret the karmic consequence?

Post by justsit »

Tenma wrote: Sun May 10, 2020 12:20 am
Dan74 wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 8:02 pm
Grigoris wrote: Sat May 09, 2020 5:40 pm The only thing that is true in "300" is that all Greek men have six packs...

fat greek guy.jpg
I don't think a Dharma forum is an appropriate place to post semi-nude pictures of yourself. I mean you may be looking for love and that's fine, but is this really the right venue?
That's not Greg. It's a random picture you can find on a 5 second search on Google.
(Psst...it was a joke....)
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Re: Historically, how did people deal with severely disabled babies? How did they interpret the karmic consequence?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Today, just as with the population in general, people who have severe physical disabilities live longer than than they would have even a hundred years ago. “Severe” is a diagnostic concept, a classification. However, quite often visible deformities at birth are accompanied by internal issues. The point I’m making is that survival was difficult to begin with. Anyone born with health-compromising issues probably didn’t live very long.

As far as how Indian and Tibetan cultures rationalized such an event, as karma or demons or whatever, that varies. If You strictly follow Buddhist doctrine, everything you experienced is karma. There’s nothing intrinsically wrong with that view.

The problems arise secondarily, when people decide that such-and-such must be the result of negative actions in a past life, that is why they were born handicapped, or female, or poor, etc. and the reason why these “interpretations” are nonsense is because they rest on a purely subjective criteria. Is it necessarily a “bad” thing to be born as a female? No, of course not (to our “modern” way of thinking) even though this is still a prevailing attitude in much of the world. If you don’t place a stigma on having a disability, then there’s no reason to assume it’s the result of “bad karma”.

I asked my lama about this once. He replied, it’s not the situation which is the karma. It’s how the person experiences the situation. Thus, a person born into great wealth may still never feel satisfied, may never have enough money, where as a person born into a poor family may never experience that.

I was told by a friend of mine who had lived for a while in Tibet that people with mild cognitive disabilities are often put in charge of caring for the yaks and other animals, and that it is thought they have a special gift that way. I don’t know if that’s really true, but that is what she told me.

...
EMPTIFUL.
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Re: Historically, how did people deal with severely disabled babies? How did they interpret the karmic consequence?

Post by PSM »

A tangentially related question - what traditional methods were/are used for contraception in Tibet?
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Re: Historically, how did people deal with severely disabled babies? How did they interpret the karmic consequence?

Post by Boomerang »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun May 10, 2020 3:08 am
I asked my lama about this once. He replied, it’s not the situation which is the karma. It’s how the person experiences the situation. Thus, a person born into great wealth may still never feel satisfied, may never have enough money, where as a person born into a poor family may never experience that.

I was told by a friend of mine who had lived for a while in Tibet that people with mild cognitive disabilities are often put in charge of caring for the yaks and other animals, and that it is thought they have a special gift that way. I don’t know if that’s really true, but that is what she told me.

...
Very interesting. Thank you.
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Re: Historically, how did people deal with severely disabled babies? How did they interpret the karmic consequence?

Post by Mirror »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun May 10, 2020 3:08 am I asked my lama about this once. He replied, it’s not the situation which is the karma. It’s how the person experiences the situation. Thus, a person born into great wealth may still never feel satisfied, may never have enough money, where as a person born into a poor family may never experience that.
:good:
We can't judge karma. There isn't such a thing as bad or good karma. When we kill someone, in our future lifes we'll be killed. It's not good nor bad. It only depends on how we look at it.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
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Re: Historically, how did people deal with severely disabled babies? How did they interpret the karmic consequence?

Post by Grigoris »

Mirror wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 10:29 pm :good:
We can't judge karma. There isn't such a thing as bad or good karma. When we kill someone, in our future lifes we'll be killed. It's not good nor bad. It only depends on how we look at it.
Not killing is the first precept a Buddhist takes and is meant to hold.

That's what the Buddha taught.

He taught that killing is bad.

How you and I look at it doesn't mean shit, because we are not enlightened.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Re: Historically, how did people deal with severely disabled babies? How did they interpret the karmic consequence?

Post by weitsicht »

I'd like to share the film BLINDSIGHT with you, available on VIMEO

(not on mental retardation though...)
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE
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Re: Historically, how did people deal with severely disabled babies? How did they interpret the karmic consequence?

Post by Mirror »

Grigoris wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 10:42 pm Not killing is the first precept a Buddhist takes and is meant to hold.

That's what the Buddha taught.

He taught that killing is bad.

How you and I look at it doesn't mean shit, because we are not enlightened.
It's "bad" because, it'll bring us suffering (being killed in our future life). But if you don't suffer, when being killed then you don't see it as something bad. Enlightened person don't see being killed as bad experience.

Even so you should investigate it for yourself. If enlightened person tells you to jump off the bridge, will you jump? Don't blindly obey someone's will. Buddha said it himself, that we should investigate his words and reflect on them.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
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Re: Historically, how did people deal with severely disabled babies? How did they interpret the karmic consequence?

Post by Grigoris »

Mirror wrote: Fri May 15, 2020 5:45 pmIt's "bad" because, it'll bring us suffering (being killed in our future life). But if you don't suffer, when being killed then you don't see it as something bad. Enlightened person don't see being killed as bad experience.
Are you talking about killing or being killed? Make up your mind.

Are you enlightened? Do you know many enlightened people?

The Buddha said in the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta: "Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of suffering: birth is suffering, aging is suffering, illness is suffering, death is suffering; union with what is displeasing is suffering; separation from what is pleasing is suffering; not to get what one wants is suffering; in brief, the five aggregates subject to clinging are suffering."
Even so you should investigate it for yourself.
I should investigate dying or killing for myself??? :shrug:
If enlightened person tells you to jump off the bridge, will you jump? Don't blindly obey someone's will.
Why would an enlightened person tell me to jump off a bridge?
Buddha said it himself, that we should investigate his words and reflect on them.
Really? Where did he say that?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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