Page 2 of 2

Re: Is a Lung Sufficient?

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 3:43 pm
by Danny
Anyway is getting off topic, can someone practice , mother or father tantras or union of both, i.e. Kalachakra after receiving rigpai tsal wang with just the lung from outer, lower or inner, higher yoga tantra?


Regards

Re: Is a Lung Sufficient?

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 5:38 pm
by Josef
PeterC wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 1:01 am
Josef wrote: Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:28 pm
PeterC wrote: Thu Apr 16, 2020 5:38 am

I don't think a Sakya or Gelug lama would be ok with you practising a sarma yidam on that basis.

Of course you could, from a Nyingma perspective, conclude that it's ok; or you could use one of the methods to give yourself permission to read any text or do any practice that are out there. But then you're doing something that the living holders of that lineage would not consider to be right, and to my mind that is reason enough not to do it.
That's why I said nyingmapa.
In practice, not even. Suppose you had received a RTW from Nyingma lama A. You then go to Nyingma lama B who happens to be a Dudjom Tersar lineage holder and ask if you can practice Troma if someone gives you the lung of the mantra. Guess what the answer would be.
As Malcolm said, it depends on the guru. In the specific case of Dudjom Troma I can attest to this as well. I was directly instructed to receiver this lung by one of my gurus from another guru. Since I had received the previously mentioned empowerments etc it was not an issue.

Re: Is a Lung Sufficient?

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 5:40 pm
by Josef
Danny wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 3:43 pm Anyway is getting off topic, can someone practice , mother or father tantras or union of both, i.e. Kalachakra after receiving rigpai tsal wang with just the lung from outer, lower or inner, higher yoga tantra?


Regards
It depends on the guru. If your guru says it is sufficient, it is sufficient. Its pretty unusual to just get the lung of one of those practices outside of the Nyingma system that was mentioned. It is usually given along with the wang in sarma settings.

Re: Is a Lung Sufficient?

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:22 pm
by javier.espinoza.t
Josef wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 5:40 pm
Danny wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 3:43 pm Anyway is getting off topic, can someone practice , mother or father tantras or union of both, i.e. Kalachakra after receiving rigpai tsal wang with just the lung from outer, lower or inner, higher yoga tantra?


Regards
It depends on the guru. If your guru says it is sufficient, it is sufficient. Its pretty unusual to just get the lung of one of those practices outside of the Nyingma system that was mentioned. It is usually given along with the wang in sarma settings.
at the light of rtw, i would say it totaly depends on one's assertion about the truth of one's mind.

if assertion is not attained then one remains in doubt, regardless how much faith one can have on one's guru, buddha, dharma, etc. in that case one should follow up for the wang approach.

the fruit's shape might be different but the taste is the same.

the polite thing to do is to ask one's teacher, but of course if one's teacher isn't actually tasting the fruit then one is encouraged to follow tradition.

that's imo.

Re: Is a Lung Sufficient?

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 8:23 pm
by conebeckham
javier.espinoza.t wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:22 pm
Josef wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 5:40 pm
Danny wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 3:43 pm Anyway is getting off topic, can someone practice , mother or father tantras or union of both, i.e. Kalachakra after receiving rigpai tsal wang with just the lung from outer, lower or inner, higher yoga tantra?


Regards
It depends on the guru. If your guru says it is sufficient, it is sufficient. Its pretty unusual to just get the lung of one of those practices outside of the Nyingma system that was mentioned. It is usually given along with the wang in sarma settings.
at the light of rtw, i would say it totaly depends on one's assertion about the truth of one's mind.

if assertion is not attained then one remains in doubt, regardless how much faith one can have on one's guru, buddha, dharma, etc. in that case one should follow up for the wang approach.

the fruit's shape might be different but the taste is the same.

the polite thing to do is to ask one's teacher, but of course if one's teacher isn't actually tasting the fruit then one is encouraged to follow tradition.

that's imo.
If one has confidence in recognition, what need of Kalacakra?

From my point of view, I would respect one's teachers authorization and advice, first and foremost, and then as a secondary rule, I would respect the given system's context. If one is practicing Nyingma kama or terma, and one has heard that one empowerment suffices, I think it's reasonable to practice Nyingma Kama or Terma based on that advice--if you need the lung, get the lung, so be it. But for Sarma, I personally feel that IF ONE IS GOING TO PRACTICE a Sarma system, one would need at least the Jenang, and only after having had a a full Wangkur into a system at the level one wishes to practice.

If you're really going to practice Kalacakra, that is a commitment. I think it requires getting the Wangkur, the Lung and the Tri. Even in the case of a tantric practice like Cakrasamvara, it is best to get the Wang, Lung and Tri of the specific sadhana and practice one will engage in, as these things are interrelated--the empowerments often have corresponding specific methods of practice in Kyerim and Dzogrim, and even different Samvara systems will have different specific techniques.

There are differences in how Nyingma and Sarma view deity yoga, and how deity practice is accomplished, and what the function and purpose of deity yoga may be. These differences should not be ignored.

Re: Is a Lung Sufficient?

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 9:55 pm
by Malcolm
Danny wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 3:43 pm Anyway is getting off topic, can someone practice , mother or father tantras or union of both, i.e. Kalachakra after receiving rigpai tsal wang with just the lung from outer, lower or inner, higher yoga tantra?


Regards
Depends on who your teacher is.

Re: Is a Lung Sufficient?

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 10:14 pm
by Danny
Malcolm wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 9:55 pm
Danny wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 3:43 pm Anyway is getting off topic, can someone practice , mother or father tantras or union of both, i.e. Kalachakra after receiving rigpai tsal wang with just the lung from outer, lower or inner, higher yoga tantra?


Regards
Depends on who your teacher is.
Currently without. The two greatest teachers of my life passed away in the space of one year.


Regards

Re: Is a Lung Sufficient?

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:44 pm
by Josef
Danny wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 10:14 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 9:55 pm
Danny wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 3:43 pm Anyway is getting off topic, can someone practice , mother or father tantras or union of both, i.e. Kalachakra after receiving rigpai tsal wang with just the lung from outer, lower or inner, higher yoga tantra?


Regards
Depends on who your teacher is.
Currently without. The two greatest teachers of my life passed away in the space of one year.


Regards
Then follow their advice you have already received.

Re: Is a Lung Sufficient?

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:55 pm
by Danny
Josef wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:44 pm
Danny wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 10:14 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 9:55 pm

Depends on who your teacher is.
Currently without. The two greatest teachers of my life passed away in the space of one year.


Regards
Then follow their advice you have already received.
Obviously, however let me add a caveat here and say that I'm not confused about my practice, I only need a few small specific questions answered regarding a small gap in my understanding on one thing, but not from anyone here. Everything else is just intellectual sausage fighting.

Last post



Regards

Re: Is a Lung Sufficient?

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:11 am
by javier.espinoza.t
conebeckham wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 8:23 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:22 pm
Josef wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 5:40 pm

It depends on the guru. If your guru says it is sufficient, it is sufficient. Its pretty unusual to just get the lung of one of those practices outside of the Nyingma system that was mentioned. It is usually given along with the wang in sarma settings.
at the light of rtw, i would say it totaly depends on one's assertion about the truth of one's mind.

if assertion is not attained then one remains in doubt, regardless how much faith one can have on one's guru, buddha, dharma, etc. in that case one should follow up for the wang approach.

the fruit's shape might be different but the taste is the same.

the polite thing to do is to ask one's teacher, but of course if one's teacher isn't actually tasting the fruit then one is encouraged to follow tradition.

that's imo.
If one has confidence in recognition, what need of Kalacakra?

From my point of view, I would respect one's teachers authorization and advice, first and foremost, and then as a secondary rule, I would respect the given system's context. If one is practicing Nyingma kama or terma, and one has heard that one empowerment suffices, I think it's reasonable to practice Nyingma Kama or Terma based on that advice--if you need the lung, get the lung, so be it. But for Sarma, I personally feel that IF ONE IS GOING TO PRACTICE a Sarma system, one would need at least the Jenang, and only after having had a a full Wangkur into a system at the level one wishes to practice.

If you're really going to practice Kalacakra, that is a commitment. I think it requires getting the Wangkur, the Lung and the Tri. Even in the case of a tantric practice like Cakrasamvara, it is best to get the Wang, Lung and Tri of the specific sadhana and practice one will engage in, as these things are interrelated--the empowerments often have corresponding specific methods of practice in Kyerim and Dzogrim, and even different Samvara systems will have different specific techniques.

There are differences in how Nyingma and Sarma view deity yoga, and how deity practice is accomplished, and what the function and purpose of deity yoga may be. These differences should not be ignored.
i think what you say is perfectly valid, is a prooven approach.

maybe i put too much enphasis on the student, to me is more important, even than the teacher.

Re: Is a Lung Sufficient?

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:23 am
by PeterC
conebeckham wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 8:23 pm
If one has confidence in recognition, what need of Kalacakra?

From my point of view, I would respect one's teachers authorization and advice, first and foremost, and then as a secondary rule, I would respect the given system's context. If one is practicing Nyingma kama or terma, and one has heard that one empowerment suffices, I think it's reasonable to practice Nyingma Kama or Terma based on that advice--if you need the lung, get the lung, so be it. But for Sarma, I personally feel that IF ONE IS GOING TO PRACTICE a Sarma system, one would need at least the Jenang, and only after having had a a full Wangkur into a system at the level one wishes to practice.

If you're really going to practice Kalacakra, that is a commitment. I think it requires getting the Wangkur, the Lung and the Tri. Even in the case of a tantric practice like Cakrasamvara, it is best to get the Wang, Lung and Tri of the specific sadhana and practice one will engage in, as these things are interrelated--the empowerments often have corresponding specific methods of practice in Kyerim and Dzogrim, and even different Samvara systems will have different specific techniques.

There are differences in how Nyingma and Sarma view deity yoga, and how deity practice is accomplished, and what the function and purpose of deity yoga may be. These differences should not be ignored.
Very well said.