Is a Lung Sufficient?
Is a Lung Sufficient?
I had a question that needs some clarification because I have seen this answered on both sides of the coin.
My question is:
1) If one has received a HYT empowerment or an Ati Yoga empowerment, is receiving a lung sufficient to practice a Sadhana for a yidam one has not received a specific empowerment for?
2) If so, could one do a short daily practice with only the lung and not empowerment's?
3) if so, then is it appropriate to self generate even without the specific empowerment?
I have seen advice in the past stating that as long as one receives the lung, then having a HYT or Ati Yoga empowerment was good enough to engage in the practice.
Some clarification would really help.
Thanks.
My question is:
1) If one has received a HYT empowerment or an Ati Yoga empowerment, is receiving a lung sufficient to practice a Sadhana for a yidam one has not received a specific empowerment for?
2) If so, could one do a short daily practice with only the lung and not empowerment's?
3) if so, then is it appropriate to self generate even without the specific empowerment?
I have seen advice in the past stating that as long as one receives the lung, then having a HYT or Ati Yoga empowerment was good enough to engage in the practice.
Some clarification would really help.
Thanks.
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Re: Is a Lung Sufficient?
if you have doubt it is better you have the empowerment.
true dharma is inexpressible.
The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
Re: Is a Lung Sufficient?
You have seen the advice but still in doubt? Why?
If I say "yes, you may do that" then you have no more doubts?
When I say "no, not allowed" what do you do?
Waiting for more "yes and "no" of DW users?!?
If I say "yes, you may do that" then you have no more doubts?
When I say "no, not allowed" what do you do?
Waiting for more "yes and "no" of DW users?!?
Lost In Transmission
- Könchok Thrinley
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Re: Is a Lung Sufficient?
Trust your teacher. If they say it is enough, then it is enough. There are many ways these things can work. If you feel like you might need an extra push, then try to get the empowerment.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche
For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.
- Arya Sanghata Sutra
For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.
- Arya Sanghata Sutra
-
- Posts: 2753
- Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:29 am
Re: Is a Lung Sufficient?
that's the problem with remaining in doubt. sad thing is that each student must endure this alone.
true dharma is inexpressible.
The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
Re: Is a Lung Sufficient?
Maybe someone is conflating lung and jenang? In Sakya and Gelug, if you have received a wang for a deity of the same or higher class, then receiving a jenang afterwards is enough to engage in self-generation practice of the jenang deity. For example, if someone receives a Chakrasamvara (HYT) wang, then receives a carya tantra Vajrapani jenang, they can do the self-generation sadhana for Vajrapani. (However, within the same class, the wang needs to be of a higher family [e.g. in kriya tantra a lotus family wang followed by a vajra family jenang] or the same family but a higher rank [e.g. in kriya tantra lotus family an Amitayus wang followed by a Tara jenang]).Terma wrote: ↑Sat Apr 11, 2020 11:52 pm I had a question that needs some clarification because I have seen this answered on both sides of the coin.
My question is:
1) If one has received a HYT empowerment or an Ati Yoga empowerment, is receiving a lung sufficient to practice a Sadhana for a yidam one has not received a specific empowerment for?
2) If so, could one do a short daily practice with only the lung and not empowerment's?
3) if so, then is it appropriate to self generate even without the specific empowerment?
I have seen advice in the past stating that as long as one receives the lung, then having a HYT or Ati Yoga empowerment was good enough to engage in the practice.
Some clarification would really help.
Thanks.
Re: Is a Lung Sufficient?
I think there is some conflation going on due to the superficial similarity with how in Nyingma practice, if one has received some version of a rigpai tsal wang then a lung is sufficient for you to practice something at the Mahayoga, Anuyoga or lower tantra levels. However not all Nyingma lamas would want a student to do that even if it were technically permissible (imagine having received that empowerment from a lama in lineage X and wanting to practice something in lineage Y, for instance). Also I suspect the OP might have been thinking that receiving a RTW would permit one to practice a Sarma yidam, or that a HYT empowerment would permit one to practice a Nyingma practice, with the appropriate lungs - which would definitely not be the case from the perspective of the lineages in which they received the lungs.jmlee369 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:38 amMaybe someone is conflating lung and jenang? In Sakya and Gelug, if you have received a wang for a deity of the same or higher class, then receiving a jenang afterwards is enough to engage in self-generation practice of the jenang deity. For example, if someone receives a Chakrasamvara (HYT) wang, then receives a carya tantra Vajrapani jenang, they can do the self-generation sadhana for Vajrapani. (However, within the same class, the wang needs to be of a higher family [e.g. in kriya tantra a lotus family wang followed by a vajra family jenang] or the same family but a higher rank [e.g. in kriya tantra lotus family an Amitayus wang followed by a Tara jenang]).Terma wrote: ↑Sat Apr 11, 2020 11:52 pm I had a question that needs some clarification because I have seen this answered on both sides of the coin.
My question is:
1) If one has received a HYT empowerment or an Ati Yoga empowerment, is receiving a lung sufficient to practice a Sadhana for a yidam one has not received a specific empowerment for?
2) If so, could one do a short daily practice with only the lung and not empowerment's?
3) if so, then is it appropriate to self generate even without the specific empowerment?
I have seen advice in the past stating that as long as one receives the lung, then having a HYT or Ati Yoga empowerment was good enough to engage in the practice.
Some clarification would really help.
Thanks.
Re: Is a Lung Sufficient?
Vajrayana bureaucracy is awesome!
The stock/standard advice is stock/standard for a reason!
(Especially) when it comes to practice issues: ASK YOUR TEACHER!
The stock/standard advice is stock/standard for a reason!
(Especially) when it comes to practice issues: ASK YOUR TEACHER!
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Is a Lung Sufficient?
Thank you for the responses. I have my 2 main teachers that I receive empowerment, transmission and instructions from, and wasn't able to reach them on short notice. This was something suggested by a Lama to be practiced for our current situation with Covid-19, thus my initial interest and questions. After some consideration, this is what led to my decision.
1) Receiving a lung to practice something from different lineage just didn't seem like the proper way to go.
2) I have great faith, trust and devotion in my own teacher's and their respective lineages and I think this is so crucial.
3) I have practices to lay me the rest of this lifetime, so no real need. As I mentioned, it was somewhat of a special case with bodhicitta in mind and not something I would even consider under normal circumstances.
Therefore, I decided to pass.
Thank you for your thoughts.
1) Receiving a lung to practice something from different lineage just didn't seem like the proper way to go.
2) I have great faith, trust and devotion in my own teacher's and their respective lineages and I think this is so crucial.
3) I have practices to lay me the rest of this lifetime, so no real need. As I mentioned, it was somewhat of a special case with bodhicitta in mind and not something I would even consider under normal circumstances.
Therefore, I decided to pass.
Thank you for your thoughts.
Re: Is a Lung Sufficient?
If you are a nyingmapa and have received the rigpai tsal wang and or a Shitro empowerment the lung is sufficient.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
Re: Is a Lung Sufficient?
I don't think a Sakya or Gelug lama would be ok with you practising a sarma yidam on that basis.
Of course you could, from a Nyingma perspective, conclude that it's ok; or you could use one of the methods to give yourself permission to read any text or do any practice that are out there. But then you're doing something that the living holders of that lineage would not consider to be right, and to my mind that is reason enough not to do it.
Re: Is a Lung Sufficient?
That's why I said nyingmapa.PeterC wrote: ↑Thu Apr 16, 2020 5:38 amI don't think a Sakya or Gelug lama would be ok with you practising a sarma yidam on that basis.
Of course you could, from a Nyingma perspective, conclude that it's ok; or you could use one of the methods to give yourself permission to read any text or do any practice that are out there. But then you're doing something that the living holders of that lineage would not consider to be right, and to my mind that is reason enough not to do it.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
Re: Is a Lung Sufficient?
In practice, not even. Suppose you had received a RTW from Nyingma lama A. You then go to Nyingma lama B who happens to be a Dudjom Tersar lineage holder and ask if you can practice Troma if someone gives you the lung of the mantra. Guess what the answer would be.Josef wrote: ↑Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:28 pmThat's why I said nyingmapa.PeterC wrote: ↑Thu Apr 16, 2020 5:38 amI don't think a Sakya or Gelug lama would be ok with you practising a sarma yidam on that basis.
Of course you could, from a Nyingma perspective, conclude that it's ok; or you could use one of the methods to give yourself permission to read any text or do any practice that are out there. But then you're doing something that the living holders of that lineage would not consider to be right, and to my mind that is reason enough not to do it.
Re: Is a Lung Sufficient?
It depends on the lama. Kunzang Dechen Lingpa wouldn’t have hesitated even for a second, if he thought you should practice troma. The guru is the empowerment.PeterC wrote: ↑Fri Apr 17, 2020 1:01 amIn practice, not even. Suppose you had received a RTW from Nyingma lama A. You then go to Nyingma lama B who happens to be a Dudjom Tersar lineage holder and ask if you can practice Troma if someone gives you the lung of the mantra. Guess what the answer would be.Josef wrote: ↑Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:28 pmThat's why I said nyingmapa.PeterC wrote: ↑Thu Apr 16, 2020 5:38 am
I don't think a Sakya or Gelug lama would be ok with you practising a sarma yidam on that basis.
Of course you could, from a Nyingma perspective, conclude that it's ok; or you could use one of the methods to give yourself permission to read any text or do any practice that are out there. But then you're doing something that the living holders of that lineage would not consider to be right, and to my mind that is reason enough not to do it.
Last edited by Malcolm on Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
- Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Is a Lung Sufficient?
I've gotten such radically different answers on this from different teachers. Including Sakya teachers, to be honest.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Re: Is a Lung Sufficient?
Malcolm's answer is pretty much the only one - it depends on the guru.Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:09 am I've gotten such radically different answers on this from different teachers. Including Sakya teachers, to be honest.
I think you have to be a bit careful in discussions of this on the internet, because some people are going to think that because they "got direct introduction" they can go off and practice everything they feel like, which is not an approach to practice that I think any lama would recommend
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Re: Is a Lung Sufficient?
What do you mean by this sentence?
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche
For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.
- Arya Sanghata Sutra
For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.
- Arya Sanghata Sutra
Re: Is a Lung Sufficient?
It means your the child and he's the daddy, and he's gonna raise you.
Regards
Regards
Re: Is a Lung Sufficient?
No, that's not what it means.
But you are putting a common misunderstanding on the screen here.
Those who follow a Guru should realize soon it does not work like that. Everybody has to walk the path on their own feet.
Re: Is a Lung Sufficient?
quite to the contrary,
the empowerments are in the analogies related to the 7 initiations in the pattern of childhood,
hevajra tantra...
As if washing their newborns, the mothers confers the initiation of cleansing with water.
the child's hair bound on his head, is to securely fix the diadem.
the piercing of the ears and adorning him, is called the initiation of the silk ribbons.
the child's talking and laughing is the initiation of vajra and bell.
his enjoyment is the deliberate behavior being named is the name initiation.
reading and writing is the permission always given by the fathers.
'these seven parts, thus described are known as the seven initiations.
regards
the empowerments are in the analogies related to the 7 initiations in the pattern of childhood,
hevajra tantra...
As if washing their newborns, the mothers confers the initiation of cleansing with water.
the child's hair bound on his head, is to securely fix the diadem.
the piercing of the ears and adorning him, is called the initiation of the silk ribbons.
the child's talking and laughing is the initiation of vajra and bell.
his enjoyment is the deliberate behavior being named is the name initiation.
reading and writing is the permission always given by the fathers.
'these seven parts, thus described are known as the seven initiations.
regards