The Ease of Receiving Empowerments

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Motova
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The Ease of Receiving Empowerments

Post by Motova »

Why is it so easy to receive empowerments when the risk is so high?
javier.espinoza.t
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Re: The Ease of Receiving Empowerments

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

Motova wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:26 pm Why is it so easy to receive empowerments when the risk is so high?
because we are naive and the system is based on memberships and donations.
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Re: The Ease of Receiving Empowerments

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javier.espinoza.t wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:20 pm
Motova wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:26 pm Why is it so easy to receive empowerments when the risk is so high?
because we are naive and the system is based on memberships and donations.
So your perspective is good dharma practitioners need funding, and evil westerners need connections?

How many people in Vajra Hell are worth the production of a Buddha?

I'm not trying to cause a stink, I am sincerely interested in this topic... it is distressing me.

With Shambhala, Rigpa, and FPMT taking heavy hits in the past three years I can only think of all the people who have ditched Vajrayana.
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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: The Ease of Receiving Empowerments

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Motova wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:37 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:20 pm
Motova wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:26 pm Why is it so easy to receive empowerments when the risk is so high?
because we are naive and the system is based on memberships and donations.
So your perspective is good dharma practitioners need funding, and evil westerners need connections?

How many people in Vajra Hell are worth the production of a Buddha?

I'm not trying to cause a stink, I am sincerely interested in this topic... it is distressing me.

With Shambhala, Rigpa, and FPMT taking heavy hits in the past three years I can only think of all the people who have ditched Vajrayana.
First of all FPMT is nothing like those other two orgs. It is actually a solid organization led by a real deal master.

Concerning your question. Well, we get empowerments because we have the karmic link. Plus really receive samayas is also not that easy. I think Malcolm said that samayas grow with a practitioner. The better practitioner is the easier it is to really break them. People in shambhala (and probably even in rigpa) didn't have really samayas as an unqualified teacher without samayas cannot give them.

I would not worry too much. Do your practice and take care so you do not end up following false gurus or breaking samayas.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

Formerly known as Miroku.
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Re: The Ease of Receiving Empowerments

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Motova wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:26 pm Why is it so easy to receive empowerments when the risk is so high?
One answer is that this is the Kali Yuga and that the great teachers in their wisdom have decided the benefits of wide exposure to Vajra Dharma outweigh the risks in the present age, I feel there is some truth to this, especially in that in today's weird, media-saturated sense world, Vajrayana fits oddly well. vehicles of renunciation are tough row to hoe in the midst of most modern lives.

Another (probably overly cynical) answer is that religious institution must perpetuate themselves somehow, exposure is neccessary for this reason, and that's what the calculus is based on.

I choose to mostly believe the first one, but I'm not gonna pretend the second hasn't crossed my mind, or is never true.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

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Motova
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Re: The Ease of Receiving Empowerments

Post by Motova »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:00 pm
Motova wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:26 pm Why is it so easy to receive empowerments when the risk is so high?
One answer is that this is the Kali Yuga and that the great teachers in their wisdom have decided the benefits of wide exposure to Vajra Dharma outweigh the risks in the present age, I feel there is some truth to this, especially in that in today's weird, media-saturated sense world, Vajrayana fits oddly well. vehicles of renunciation are tough row to hoe in the midst of most modern lives.

Another (probably overly cynical) answer is that religious institution must perpetuate themselves somehow, exposure is neccessary for this reason, and that's what the calculus is based on.

I choose to mostly believe the first one, but I'm not gonna pretend the second hasn't crossed my mind, or is never true.
I thought I was to be thought of one's mother or single child, but now it seems I am a statistic....
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Re: The Ease of Receiving Empowerments

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Motova wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:07 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:00 pm
Motova wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:26 pm Why is it so easy to receive empowerments when the risk is so high?
One answer is that this is the Kali Yuga and that the great teachers in their wisdom have decided the benefits of wide exposure to Vajra Dharma outweigh the risks in the present age, I feel there is some truth to this, especially in that in today's weird, media-saturated sense world, Vajrayana fits oddly well. vehicles of renunciation are tough row to hoe in the midst of most modern lives.

Another (probably overly cynical) answer is that religious institution must perpetuate themselves somehow, exposure is neccessary for this reason, and that's what the calculus is based on.

I choose to mostly believe the first one, but I'm not gonna pretend the second hasn't crossed my mind, or is never true.
I thought I was to be thought of one's mother or single child, but now it seems I am a statistic....
Huh?
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

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Re: The Ease of Receiving Empowerments

Post by Motova »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:20 pm
Motova wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:07 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:00 pm

One answer is that this is the Kali Yuga and that the great teachers in their wisdom have decided the benefits of wide exposure to Vajra Dharma outweigh the risks in the present age, I feel there is some truth to this, especially in that in today's weird, media-saturated sense world, Vajrayana fits oddly well. vehicles of renunciation are tough row to hoe in the midst of most modern lives.

Another (probably overly cynical) answer is that religious institution must perpetuate themselves somehow, exposure is neccessary for this reason, and that's what the calculus is based on.

I choose to mostly believe the first one, but I'm not gonna pretend the second hasn't crossed my mind, or is never true.
I thought I was to be thought of one's mother or single child, but now it seems I am a statistic....
Huh?
What don't you understand?

Apparently there is an equation at work. At some point it's worth risking a number of beings going to hell for the chance for someone to realize Buddhahood through Vajrayana.

Again, I'm not trying to cause a stink.

I just need to explain the suffering I've experienced during my scramble to establish an understanding and foundation in Vajrayana after receiving my initial empowerments.
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Re: The Ease of Receiving Empowerments

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Motova wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:43 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:20 pm
Motova wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:07 pm

I thought I was to be thought of one's mother or single child, but now it seems I am a statistic....
Huh?
What don't you understand?

Apparently there is an equation at work. At some point it's worth risking a number of beings going to hell for the chance for someone to realize Buddhahood through Vajrayana.

Again, I'm not trying to cause a stink.

I just need to explain the suffering I've experienced during my scramble to establish an understanding and foundation in Vajrayana after receiving my initial empowerments.
What makes you think of any of us can explain that? It seems unlikely.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low
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Re: The Ease of Receiving Empowerments

Post by Motova »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:49 pm
Motova wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:43 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:20 pm

Huh?
What don't you understand?

Apparently there is an equation at work. At some point it's worth risking a number of beings going to hell for the chance for someone to realize Buddhahood through Vajrayana.

Again, I'm not trying to cause a stink.

I just need to explain the suffering I've experienced during my scramble to establish an understanding and foundation in Vajrayana after receiving my initial empowerments.
What makes you think of any of us can explain that? It seems unlikely.
Because it is an important and basic question, and I assume it has been answered many times.
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Re: The Ease of Receiving Empowerments

Post by Aryjna »

Motova wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:43 pm Apparently there is an equation at work. At some point it's worth risking a number of beings going to hell for the chance for someone to realize Buddhahood through Vajrayana.
There is no risk. Without Vajrayana everyone is going to hell, it is only a matter of time. And it is not a chance of buddhahood, it is certainty, again a matter of time.

That is if you actually accept what the Vajrayana has to say on the matter.
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Re: The Ease of Receiving Empowerments

Post by Motova »

Aryjna wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:28 pm
Motova wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:43 pm Apparently there is an equation at work. At some point it's worth risking a number of beings going to hell for the chance for someone to realize Buddhahood through Vajrayana.
There is no risk. Without Vajrayana everyone is going to hell, it is only a matter of time. And it is not a chance of buddhahood, it is certainty, again a matter of time.

That is if you actually accept what the Vajrayana has to say on the matter.
Please provide a citation that. What about Hinayana and Mahayana?
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Re: The Ease of Receiving Empowerments

Post by Terma »

One of the amazing things about Vajrayana is how many skillful means are at our disposal for both accumulating merit, and for means of purification which includes our samaya.

Ultimately, doesn't samaya in it's simplist form come down to having pure perception? How many of us can keep that pure perception continuously? Perhaps this is why there are so many means of purification that one uses along the way until one reaches that point at which they can abide in that view.

Why the thought that the majority or Vajrayana practitioners are going to hell? Seems like a sort of Western religious take on being "eternally damned" or something of the sort. We all have Buddha nature and our stains are only temporary, otherwise what is the point?

When many of us first started out, we felt like we quickly wanted to take a few initiations, maybe do a few practices and what not. But for some, as their understanding deepens, they become a little more cautious about empowerments and especially who they recieve them from. I think after a point, some take it all much more serious and this will deepen both their practice and appreciation of Vajrayana, and in turn make the samaya stronger or more pure. I think this also leads to a sort of building momentum which can keep us heading in the right direction.

I wouldn't worry about the teachers giving the empowerments though. I think they understand the responsibility as well as the risk involved. In fact doesn't the risk and responsibility fall much, much greater upon them?
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Re: The Ease of Receiving Empowerments

Post by LolCat »

I don't want to hijack this topic, and hopefully this is sufficiently related to the question being asked, but isn't there a common notion that the Vajrayana path can be quite intense?

Some things that come to mind, I remember Patrul Rinpoche mentioning in WOMPT that bodhisattvas would suffer greatly in their lives because the karma that would have otherwise ripened in subsequent lives gets purified in the present one.
Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche says that you can infer that your dharma practice is going well if your life is upside down, or something to that effect(From Not For Happiness).
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Re: The Ease of Receiving Empowerments

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LolCat wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:13 am I don't want to hijack this topic, and hopefully this is sufficiently related to the question being asked, but isn't there a common notion that the Vajrayana path can be quite intense?

Some things that come to mind, I remember Patrul Rinpoche mentioning in WOMPT that bodhisattvas would suffer greatly in their lives because the karma that would have otherwise ripened in subsequent lives gets purified in the present one.
Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche says that you can infer that your dharma practice is going well if your life is upside down, or something to that effect(From Not For Happiness).
I just want to be clear on why I mentioned this. I started out with Vajrayana a couple of years back, and my life has been pretty tumultuous since then. Extreme lows due to external life situations, but with unbelievable luck to get out of those lows as well. It is still very unstable and I sometimes envy my worldly companions who enjoy a seemingly steady life, but I try to work with it.

I didn't say this earlier because I have no understanding of the OP's situation and don't want to equate two possibly very different scenarios. I just assumed experiences like mine were par for the course in Vajrayana.
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Re: The Ease of Receiving Empowerments

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

Motova wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:37 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:20 pm
Motova wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:26 pm Why is it so easy to receive empowerments when the risk is so high?
because we are naive and the system is based on memberships and donations.
So your perspective is good dharma practitioners need funding, and evil westerners need connections?

How many people in Vajra Hell are worth the production of a Buddha?

I'm not trying to cause a stink, I am sincerely interested in this topic... it is distressing me.

With Shambhala, Rigpa, and FPMT taking heavy hits in the past three years I can only think of all the people who have ditched Vajrayana.
mm not really, i consider that usually one is not aware of what means to receive an a transmission that is alive, and that for us is so easy to obtain this only by having the economic means or satisfying the economical requierments.

i think that the real chance for us is less during this life and more at the end of it, during the bardo of the dharmata. imo vajra hell happen when one gets definetely in the path of rudra, and not because one is just learning the how-to-vajrayana. we all make mistakes, i make mistakes practically all the time for example.. i hope i'm not being naive again.

don't worry for me when talking honestly, i prefer any truth instead of a nice lie that can make feel it's ok. it doesn't stink untill it is ill will.

now, what i can observe on organizations in general is that i just can't understand why, why!, every single one of them want a center for it's own... if they all are buddhists! so there's no real justification for the financial disasters that organizations are facing. i would like every school/lineage be able to share grounds, infraestructure, that's my phantasie. sectarism doesn't help to preserve the teaching it suposedly try to preserve, so organizations try to survive by looking for more resources. it's absurd.
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Re: The Ease of Receiving Empowerments

Post by Aryjna »

Motova wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:31 pm
Aryjna wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:28 pm
Motova wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:43 pm Apparently there is an equation at work. At some point it's worth risking a number of beings going to hell for the chance for someone to realize Buddhahood through Vajrayana.
There is no risk. Without Vajrayana everyone is going to hell, it is only a matter of time. And it is not a chance of buddhahood, it is certainty, again a matter of time.

That is if you actually accept what the Vajrayana has to say on the matter.
Please provide a citation that. What about Hinayana and Mahayana?
Hinayana does not lead to the same result so it is irrelevant here. Mahayana takes infinitely longer. Messing up your Mahayana and/or Hinayana vows can also send you to hell. Do you really need a citation for that? Because there are thousands that you can find on google.
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Re: The Ease of Receiving Empowerments

Post by Motova »

Aryjna wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:08 am
Motova wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:31 pm
Aryjna wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:28 pm

There is no risk. Without Vajrayana everyone is going to hell, it is only a matter of time. And it is not a chance of buddhahood, it is certainty, again a matter of time.

That is if you actually accept what the Vajrayana has to say on the matter.
Please provide a citation that. What about Hinayana and Mahayana?
Hinayana does not lead to the same result so it is irrelevant here. Mahayana takes infinitely longer. Messing up your Mahayana and/or Hinayana vows can also send you to hell. Do you really need a citation for that? Because there are thousands that you can find on google.
Your English is difficult to understand.
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Re: The Ease of Receiving Empowerments

Post by Aryjna »

Motova wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:18 am
Aryjna wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:08 am
Motova wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:31 pm

Please provide a citation that. What about Hinayana and Mahayana?
Hinayana does not lead to the same result so it is irrelevant here. Mahayana takes infinitely longer. Messing up your Mahayana and/or Hinayana vows can also send you to hell. Do you really need a citation for that? Because there are thousands that you can find on google.
Your English is difficult to understand.
Hell is unavoidable for anyone who is not getting out of samsara as soon as possible. Breaking the bodhisattva/Mahayana vows leads to hell. So, even though you could say that Mahayana is in a way less risky, in practice I'm not so sure this is the case.

Don't forget that there are 5 different ways to get into the vajra hell, and they have nothing to do with the Vajrayana.
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Re: The Ease of Receiving Empowerments

Post by heart »

Motova wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:26 pm Why is it so easy to receive empowerments when the risk is so high?
It is rather easy to receive an empowerment that some center have requested in order to get some income. It is not so easy to request an empowerment yourself for an practice that you actually trust as a complete path to liberation and that you also intend to practice fully. Even if any empowerment gives samaya, since the Lama don't think you will do the practice seriously and don't give any commitments (for this reason), to keep your samaya you only need to avoid having negative thoughts about the master. So, not very high risk.
The real high risk comes when you commit to a master and to a path and request the empowerment yourself. Then you have to do the full practice. Many highest yoga tantra empowerment are really big commitments that will keep you busy for many many years and can involve getting substances and tormas and translations and many things that involve money, time and patience just to be able to start, never mind attaining liberation.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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