Diana Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Diane Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

Nemo wrote: Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:21 pm
Grigoris wrote: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:17 am
passel wrote: Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:06 am

99% positive there was no marriage involved, about 70% positive she was a nun at the time.
Yes, you are correct. There were no marriages in Tibet anyway and Buddhism does not have marriage rituals. :smile:

He is CTR's first son from his earliest consort? Would that be a better way to put it? A bit clumsy... :tongue:
Does it really matter anymore? His students blew it so badly over and over it might be a good time to shut her down. Like Catholic priest don't leave them alone with your kid blew it. Even I was seduced by a meditation teacher twice my age when I started going there as a teen.

CTR attracted a Sangha that normally wouldn't have been into Dharma. The problem is he attracted people who want to act like him. So many that the Sangha continually engages in self destructive abusive behavior pretending to be like their teacher. A dog can't jump like a lion. Take it from an old dog. Every Sangha has a few scoundrels, but why do you always put them in charge?
people love to be passive, then they are safe for not being the one that mess up things and the ones who are pointed afterwards.

gossip is the problem. when sangha is founded on gossip and secretism... those who are more sly can gain power, prestige, positions, be in the inner circle, and so.

which criteria the Sakyong uses for electing his guards?
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Re: Diane Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

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Grigoris wrote: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:17 am
passel wrote: Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:06 am
Grigoris wrote: Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:39 pm He is CTR's son from his first marriage.
99% positive there was no marriage involved, about 70% positive she was a nun at the time.
Yes, you are correct. There were no marriages in Tibet anyway and Buddhism does not have marriage rituals. :smile:

He is CTR's first son from his earliest consort? Would that be a better way to put it? A bit clumsy... :tongue:
In India.
Doubt she was his first "consort" tho who knows.
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Re: Diane Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

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passel wrote: Sun Feb 24, 2019 10:29 pm
Grigoris wrote: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:17 am
passel wrote: Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:06 am

99% positive there was no marriage involved, about 70% positive she was a nun at the time.
Yes, you are correct. There were no marriages in Tibet anyway and Buddhism does not have marriage rituals. :smile:

He is CTR's first son from his earliest consort? Would that be a better way to put it? A bit clumsy... :tongue:
In India.
Doubt she was his first "consort" tho who knows.
I said earliest, not first... ;)

But I think we are just splitting straws here, for no discernible purpose.

He was CTR's eldest son, that's why he got the job.
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Re: Diane Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

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Yup
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Re: Diane Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

Post by Adamantine »

Grigoris wrote: Sun Feb 24, 2019 10:55 pm

He was CTR's eldest son, that's why he got the job.
Well Tagi wouldn’t have been able to do it. And Gesar clearly
wouldn’t want to do it. So Osel Mukpo was really the only option in the family line, in a patriarchal lineage. I wonder how things may have unfolded if Diana had been empowered to take the reigns as Sakyong. Seems like men have done a terrible job of protecting the Earth thus far.
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Re: Diane Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

Post by Arupajhana7 »

Adamantine wrote: Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:35 am Tagi wouldn’t have been able to do it. And Gesar clearly
wouldn’t want to do it. So Osel Mukpo was really the only option in the family line, in a patriarchal lineage. I wonder how things may have unfolded if Diana had been empowered to take the reigns as Sakyong. Seems like men have done a terrible job of protecting the Earth thus far.
I think the whole hierarchical structure was one of the main contributors to the problems. Maybe Diana would have done a better job, who knows, but I think there would still be problems with such a hierarchical structure of unchecked power even with a woman in charge which is why I am against the idea that the Shambhala Community simply put one of his daughters on the throne when she comes of age.

Elizabeth Bathory is a good example of how simply putting a woman in a position of nobility and feudal power doesn't translate into good ethics. I think the monarchical system alienates the people at the top and makes them out of touch with their own humanity by putting them on such a pedestal. That's why they have such a hard time understanding when they are harming their "subjects".

Something less hierarchical and less centralized around one person would be better.

I dunno.. In Namkai Norbu's community somehow it has managed (up until his death) to be centered around him spiritually while seeming nearly completely non-hierarchical as an institution from my limited experiences engaging in the community. I don't know how they pulled that off. There are still teachers but they aren't propped up into some special status, it felt like they were equals. Maybe I am wrong as I haven't attended more than one retreat in this community, but that was my impression.
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Re: Diana Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

Post by pemachophel »

I've said it before (and been criticized for it), but I'll say it again. Vajrayana is inherently dangerous and is not, as it says in the Tantras themselves, for everyone. "Caveat emptor, buyer beware." Speed and safety don't go together even on the mundane level.

I don't believe that the Vajrayana sangha must, by necessity, be constituted in a monarchical, feudal way, but realization of the Teacher as not just a Buddha but the Buddha is an integral, indispensable part of Vajrayana. Try to eliminate that and you "throw the baby out with the bathwater." If you want to see and relate to the Teacher as an ordinary being just like ourselves, then stick to the Shravakayana and Mahayana. Do not drink the samaya water.

Sorry ahead of time if I am totally wrong about this.
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Re: Diana Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

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If you want to see and relate to the Teacher as an ordinary being just like ourselves, then stick to the Shravakayana and Mahayana.
I think you can add to that the three lower/outer Tantras.

Hey, it’s good enough!
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: Diana Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Seeing the Guru as Buddha does not neccessitate a pantomime of a monarchy, nor does it necessitate supporting a particular type of social structure, much less a structure of the kind in place at Shambhala.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

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Re: Diana Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:46 pm Seeing the Guru as Buddha does not neccessitate a pantomime of a monarchy, nor does it necessitate supporting a particular type of social structure.
True.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: Diana Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

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I'd echo the comment on ChNNs community, the idea that authoritarian social structures are neccessary for Vajrayana is incorrect imo....even a bit orientalist.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

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Re: Diana Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:50 pm I'd echo the comment on ChNNs community, the idea that authoritarian social structures are neccessary for Vajrayana is incorrect imo....even a bit orientalist.
Vajrayana does not require any social structure at all. You can be a student of a teacher without belonging to an organization.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: Diana Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

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smcj wrote: Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:56 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:50 pm I'd echo the comment on ChNNs community, the idea that authoritarian social structures are neccessary for Vajrayana is incorrect imo....even a bit orientalist.
Vajrayana does not require any social structure at all. You can be a student of a teacher without belonging to an organization.
As one example off the top of my head, in Crystal and The Way of Light Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche talks about his teacher Changchub Dorje's sangha, and how the Chinese authorities were flummoxed because they wanted to come and in enforce some kind of "egalitarian" structure, but found it was already there, and there was nothing they could change - i.e. a group of Dzogchen practitioners who were supporting one another, everyone doing their, with no formal hierarchy in particular required.

I realize this isn't necessarily "standard", and I also know that for some people the more traditional hierarchy plays a significant role, I don't think it's wrong or lesser, i just don't think it's a given for all people or groups, much less a requirement for pure vision of one's Guru, which has zero to do with one's place in a pecking order with others, nor with following specific social customs. That is replacing the Dharma with particular Tibetan mores, which we can see have not always been in place, and are often disputed, or at least deeply questioned from within the traditions themselves.

I also really don't know why people keep beating their heads against the wall, implicitly recommending that people maintain pure vision of someone who raped or molested them. Do you think the average practitioner is even capable of that?

I mean really, whatever the solution is, that is not it. Or more accurately, while It would be greatly meritorious for them to retain pure vision here, perhaps also they can maintain that pure vision while the people doing the raping get held accountable...how's that for a compromise.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

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Re: Diana Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

Post by tobes »

The issue is far more epistemological than it is political. i.e. at its root, it is about who has true knowledge, who doesn't (but wishes to gain it) and how hard it is to gain that true knowledge. Institutional organisation may take many forms, but what really structures it is this.

And the root problem is always: people making the claim that they have that true knowledge, when in reality they do not.

But trying to overturn this with appeals to some of form of egalitarianism ignores the fact that people will always have different degrees of insight, experience, conventional knowledge, siddhis, apprehension of the ultimate etc; in some cases, radically different degrees.

At the end of the day, the tradition arose because the Buddha chose to teach on the basis of his direct insight; it is quite natural that the novice who ordains into the sangha accepts an epistemic difference between himself and the Buddha - and with that a power difference, that is in some sense political.
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Re: Diana Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Or more accurately, while It would be greatly meritorious for them to retain pure vision here, perhaps also they can maintain that pure vision while the people doing the raping get held accountable...how's that for a compromise.
It’s fine. Somebody that actually is functioning from that level of transcendence wouldn’t be bothered by being held accountable.

Or would they?
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: Diana Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

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smcj wrote: Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:46 pm
If you want to see and relate to the Teacher as an ordinary being just like ourselves, then stick to the Shravakayana and Mahayana.
I think you can add to that the three lower/outer Tantras.

Hey, it’s good enough!
is a Tantric magician with some minor powers and accomplishments worthy of such veneration if his character is still arrogant, devious, manipulative, insecure and greedy? In an age of charlatans isn't taming one's character the real siddhi? Even if you accomplish Shamatha you can do amazing things. But that is not what makes a teacher.
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Re: Diana Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

is a Tantric magician with some minor powers and accomplishments worthy of such veneration if his character is still arrogant, devious, manipulative, insecure and greedy? In an age of charlatans isn't taming one's character the real siddhi? Even if you accomplish Shamatha you can do amazing things. But that is not what makes a teacher.
In terms of general Mahayana I agree with you 100%.
Last edited by Schrödinger’s Yidam on Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:33 am, edited 3 times in total.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: Diana Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

Post by PeterC »

smcj wrote: Tue Feb 26, 2019 12:06 am
Or more accurately, while It would be greatly meritorious for them to retain pure vision here, perhaps also they can maintain that pure vision while the people doing the raping get held accountable...how's that for a compromise.
It’s fine. Somebody that actually is functioning from that level of transcendence wouldn’t be bothered by being held accountable.

Or would they?
A qualified guru would not be overly bothered. In fact quite a few teachers who are alive today or recently passed spent time in less-than-ideal circumstances - Garchen Rinpoche, Yangthang Rinpoche, Khenpo Munsel, etc. When you hear them talk about it, they say that it really didn't bother them much, and from their accounts I believe them. Indeed Garchen Rinpoche received some of his most important teachings under these circumstances.

At this point I'm not sure there's anything else that can be said about Shambhala. It's obvious to anyone with a brain what sort of person Mukpo Jr is. If members of their so-called-sangha want to continue to drink poison and call it water, that now must be considered an informed choice on their part. If they want to set up a splinter organization, they're well-educated enough in how vajrayana transmission works to assess the pros and cons of that. I'm sure any respectable sangha would be more than welcoming of any refugees. As to the general reputation of the Dharma and the vajrayana in particular, this was not the first scandal of its kind and it certainly will not be the last: it is a cause for regret if these scandals deter people from practicing the Dharma, but for those who have already entered the path of the vajrayana under a different guru, it should be a matter of complete irrelevance to their personal practice.
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Re: Diana Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

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smcj wrote: Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:10 am
is a Tantric magician with some minor powers and accomplishments worthy of such veneration if his character is still arrogant, devious, manipulative, insecure and greedy? In an age of charlatans isn't taming one's character the real siddhi? Even if you accomplish Shamatha you can do amazing things. But that is not what makes a teacher.
So do you not accept the validity of Tilopa’s realization?

Don’t get me wrong. In general I agree with you. However allowances must be made for the possibility that what appeared as character defects are in fact enlightened activity.

To disallow for that possibility does two things. First it takes as valid the pedestrian, banal, mundane mindset. This is the mindset of fundamental ignorance. All of Dharma is meant to overcome this mind.

Second it denies that it is possible for a human being to evolve beyond our normal horizons of understanding. Again this effectively asserts that Buddha Activity is only valid up to how our limitations can see it.

But in terms of general Mahayana I agree with you 100%.
Take 100 cruel selfish tantric teachers. 99 will be fakes and 1 will be Tilopa. Caveat Emptor. Instead you could go see a Karmapa or Dilgo Khyntse or Namkhai Norbu, etc and never have to deal with this stupid dilemma.
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Re: Diana Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

Post by TrimePema »

Nemo wrote: Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:34 am
smcj wrote: Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:10 am
is a Tantric magician with some minor powers and accomplishments worthy of such veneration if his character is still arrogant, devious, manipulative, insecure and greedy? In an age of charlatans isn't taming one's character the real siddhi? Even if you accomplish Shamatha you can do amazing things. But that is not what makes a teacher.
So do you not accept the validity of Tilopa’s realization?

Don’t get me wrong. In general I agree with you. However allowances must be made for the possibility that what appeared as character defects are in fact enlightened activity.

To disallow for that possibility does two things. First it takes as valid the pedestrian, banal, mundane mindset. This is the mindset of fundamental ignorance. All of Dharma is meant to overcome this mind.

Second it denies that it is possible for a human being to evolve beyond our normal horizons of understanding. Again this effectively asserts that Buddha Activity is only valid up to how our limitations can see it.

But in terms of general Mahayana I agree with you 100%.
Take 100 cruel selfish tantric teachers. 99 will be fakes and 1 will be Tilopa. Caveat Emptor. Instead you could go see a Karmapa or Dilgo Khyntse or Namkhai Norbu, etc and never have to deal with this stupid dilemma.
dzongsar khyentse rinpoche-la makes it clear in the guru drinks bourbon? that it depends more on the student's view than the teacher's wisdom. what if these 'questionable' teachers really are sacrificing all their worldly renown and so on in order to greatly benefit those who have various degrees of pure vision?
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