Diana Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

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Grigoris
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Re: Diane Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

Post by Grigoris »

javier.espinoza.t wrote: Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:46 pmi don't understand yet why they still exists. the king is mad and naked, don't you see? he is going to jail eventually.
Do you know how many modern European countries (for example) are still monarchies? Their kings and queens are mad and naked too, yet they rule over entire nations.
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Re: Diane Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

Grigoris wrote: Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:48 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote: Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:46 pmi don't understand yet why they still exists. the king is mad and naked, don't you see? he is going to jail eventually.
Do you know how many modern European countries (for example) are still monarchies?
i do know some in which the monarchs still have unjustified attributions. UK for example. But that wasn't the point of my question :P.

by reading the letter i was just wondering why everyone points to this Sakyong bad behaviour but no one questions his authority. Is he the real problem, the organization system, or both, or something else, etc. ?
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Re: Diane Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

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javier.espinoza.t wrote: Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:51 pm
Grigoris wrote: Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:48 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote: Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:46 pmi don't understand yet why they still exists. the king is mad and naked, don't you see? he is going to jail eventually.
Do you know how many modern European countries (for example) are still monarchies?
i do know some in which the monarchs still have unjustified attributions. UK for example. But that wasn't the point of my question :P.

by reading the letter i was just wondering why everyone points to this Sakyong bad behaviour but no one questions his authority. Is he the real problem, the organization system, or both, or something else, etc. ?
Its a spiritual ponzi scheme as best I can see.
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Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

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Re: Diane Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

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javier.espinoza.t wrote: Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:51 pm
Grigoris wrote: Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:48 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote: Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:46 pmi don't understand yet why they still exists. the king is mad and naked, don't you see? he is going to jail eventually.
Do you know how many modern European countries (for example) are still monarchies?
i do know some in which the monarchs still have unjustified attributions. UK for example. But that wasn't the point of my question :P.

by reading the letter i was just wondering why everyone points to this Sakyong bad behaviour but no one questions his authority. Is he the real problem, the organization system, or both, or something else, etc. ?
Well as far as I have been able to make out, and the reason it would appear people seem reticent to go too far in criticizing it, is that apparently Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche decided/suggested(?) the young Mukpo take over after the Tom Rich catastrophe. I believe the organization sought his counsel as to how to proceed during the crisis.
Could be wrong.
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Re: Diane Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

Post by jbaumannmontilla »

The thing I don't understand in all the Shambhala discussions is they all seem to assume that in order for CTR's teachings to continue to be taught there has to be a lineage head who transmits them, and that this person has to be somehow biologically related to CTR. Is this how termas work? What qualifies someone to pass on a teaching? What is a head of the lineage? How is this different then just any other person who has received all of a body of teachings and practiced them thoroughly?
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Re: Diane Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

Post by zenman »

Adamantine wrote: Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:05 am The following is an open letter from Lady Diana Mukpo to the Shambhala community:

...I know that there is one person who has prominently spoken up about feeling traumatized by the Vidyadhara and those around him...
One only huh? Have seen at least a handful who had things to say. How weak is she to mention just one person?
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Re: Diane Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

Post by Adamantine »

Firstly, Nemo, I think that’s an odd conspiracy theory. As far as my understanding of history.. I’m sure if I’m wrong I’ll be corrected: Trungpa had married 7 different, mostly young women by that time. Diane’s “affair” with the doctor had already produced a son, whom CTR was happy to raise as his own also, and had tulku status conferred on (Ashoka). So he was well aware of that relationship and it was far from “cheating” considering the unconventional polyamorous relationship they shared. She was a devoted disciple of CTR, to the end.. however it’s clear considering their polyamory that it’s not to be expected she’d be sharing the same space as him 24/7 so it’s highly likely she wouldn’t be aware of his sepsis within the time frame, if you’re correct about that..

It’s quite possible considering his alcoholism and substance degeneration in the last 2-3 years of his life that protectors intervened.. if you want to get into conspiracies let’s take out the big guns.

Secondly, re: the copyrights... it’s my understanding that this was CTR’s own will and testament that left then in her hands. Also, he left the Shambhala lineage to Osel Mukpo.. this was his intention for him to be “Sakyong”... however his vision for others potentials didn’t seem to always be fulfilled.. His regent and now this... it doesn’t mean their potential couldn’t have been great, they just didn’t cultivate it to the point of fruition. I’m sure the example of CTR’s final years did not help.
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Re: Diane Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

To me the letter sounded like she wants a seat at the table. I don’t know if that’s actually true, but it can be read that way.

I have no idea what the most beneficial outcome is to all this. Whatever that may be I hope they find it.
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Re: Diane Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

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Grigoris wrote: Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:48 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote: Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:46 pmi don't understand yet why they still exists. the king is mad and naked, don't you see? he is going to jail eventually.
Do you know how many modern European countries (for example) are still monarchies? Their kings and queens are mad and naked too, yet they rule over entire nations.
Constitutional monarchies where the monarch has no executive power

I wonder whether I could see the Shambhala constitution. Would be entertaining

I know I’ve said this before, but it amazes me that while there are so many brilliant teachers alive in the world today, people choose to persist with this particular lineage
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Re: Diane Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

PeterC wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:59 am
Grigoris wrote: Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:48 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote: Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:46 pmi don't understand yet why they still exists. the king is mad and naked, don't you see? he is going to jail eventually.
Do you know how many modern European countries (for example) are still monarchies? Their kings and queens are mad and naked too, yet they rule over entire nations.
Constitutional monarchies where the monarch has no executive power

I wonder whether I could see the Shambhala constitution. Would be entertaining

I know I’ve said this before, but it amazes me that while there are so many brilliant teachers alive in the world today, people choose to persist with this particular lineage
...Prince Charles, receive most of their income from the government and their private estates
https://money.cnn.com/2018/05/09/pf/whe ... index.html


it is suposed that they don't have power... (?)
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Re: Diane Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

Post by PeterC »

javier.espinoza.t wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:38 am
PeterC wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:59 am
Grigoris wrote: Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:48 pm Do you know how many modern European countries (for example) are still monarchies? Their kings and queens are mad and naked too, yet they rule over entire nations.
Constitutional monarchies where the monarch has no executive power

I wonder whether I could see the Shambhala constitution. Would be entertaining

I know I’ve said this before, but it amazes me that while there are so many brilliant teachers alive in the world today, people choose to persist with this particular lineage
...Prince Charles, receive most of their income from the government and their private estates
https://money.cnn.com/2018/05/09/pf/whe ... index.html


it is suposed that they don't have power... (?)
No. They don't pass legislation, they don't participate in the executive or legislative process. Like other wealthy families they receive money from their assets and they get paid money largely to support the ceremonial duties they fulfill. This is basically the model for all European countries that retain a monarchy. The difference tends to be around the scope of the royal family and how 'normal' their lives are. But they don't order serfs into battle and negotiate treaties anymore.
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Re: Diane Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

Post by Grigoris »

Let's keep it on topic shall we?

The discussion was about the monarchical nature of Shambhala, not the nature of monarchies.

Off topic discussion split here: viewtopic.php?f=36&t=30630
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
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Re: Diane Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

Post by Nemo »

Did you know you can choose between Dharma with a bit of poison sprinkled in and poison free?

I know it's bland and you have to go to a different store to get it, but it's also cheaper. I get that you are used to poison mixed in and you are a regular. I think it's time for an intervention though. Dharma does not have to include suffering. You can live with a Lama and know him 25 years and never see behavior like this once. Students who do bad things are banished to a safe distance and can slowly rehabilitate themselves over decades as long as they admit their bad deeds publicly. You know, a real Sangha. Is there any reason to keep going? There are many realized teachers who keep moral discipline and they don't mind teaching scoundrels.
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Re: Diane Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

Post by Donny »

Adamantine wrote: Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:05 am The following is an open letter from Lady Diana Mukpo to the Shambhala community:

There has been much discussion about the Sakyong’s childhood. He had a very difficult time growing up. When he arrived in this country as a traumatized ten-year-old child, I, his stepmother, was nineteen. I did not have the parenting skills to help him sufficiently. I am sorry about this and wish it had been different. His father was always loving toward the Sakyong but did not give him as much attention as he needed. This too is sad, but we all have different degrees of trauma. It is the nature of life and doesn’t really excuse his abuse of power and all that went along with it.
I think this is a central and often overlooked part: the amount of transgenerational trauma on "both sides". There is a lot of traumatic memory in the tibetan diaspora. And there is a lot of trauma in Western societies. If not properly adressed organizations can become breeding grounds for the reenactment of transgenerational wounds. Thus inflicting new wounds and keep the sad cycle going.
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Re: Diane Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

Post by Terma »

PeterC wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:59 am I know I’ve said this before, but it amazes me that while there are so many brilliant teachers alive in the world today, people choose to persist with this particular lineage
I agree and I feel quite sad for those people.
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Re: Diane Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

Post by Grigoris »

PeterC wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:59 am I know I’ve said this before, but it amazes me that while there are so many brilliant teachers alive in the world today, people choose to persist with this particular lineage
Karma is a bitch...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Re: Diane Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

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Grigoris wrote: Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:39 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote: Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:33 pm may i ask, why is necessary that this person Sakyong leads this community? what makes him suitable to take the lead and to teach? i'm not a member of shambala, but i wonder.

sorry if someone gets annoyed, if so i take my leave of this thread.
He is CTR's son from his first marriage.
99% positive there was no marriage involved, about 70% positive she was a nun at the time.
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Re: Diane Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

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passel wrote: Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:06 am
Grigoris wrote: Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:39 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote: Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:33 pm may i ask, why is necessary that this person Sakyong leads this community? what makes him suitable to take the lead and to teach? i'm not a member of shambala, but i wonder.

sorry if someone gets annoyed, if so i take my leave of this thread.
He is CTR's son from his first marriage.
99% positive there was no marriage involved, about 70% positive she was a nun at the time.
Yes, you are correct. There were no marriages in Tibet anyway and Buddhism does not have marriage rituals. :smile:

He is CTR's first son from his earliest consort? Would that be a better way to put it? A bit clumsy... :tongue:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Re: Diane Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

Post by Nemo »

Grigoris wrote: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:17 am
passel wrote: Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:06 am
Grigoris wrote: Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:39 pm He is CTR's son from his first marriage.
99% positive there was no marriage involved, about 70% positive she was a nun at the time.
Yes, you are correct. There were no marriages in Tibet anyway and Buddhism does not have marriage rituals. :smile:

He is CTR's first son from his earliest consort? Would that be a better way to put it? A bit clumsy... :tongue:
Does it really matter anymore? His students blew it so badly over and over it might be a good time to shut her down. Like Catholic priest don't leave them alone with your kid blew it. Even I was seduced by a meditation teacher twice my age when I started going there as a teen.

CTR attracted a Sangha that normally wouldn't have been into Dharma. The problem is he attracted people who want to act like him. So many that the Sangha continually engages in self destructive abusive behavior pretending to be like their teacher. A dog can't jump like a lion. Take it from an old dog. Every Sangha has a few scoundrels, but why do you always put them in charge?
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Re: Diane Mukpo’s potent letter re: Shambhala

Post by DechenDave »

Nemo wrote: Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:21 pm Every Sangha has a few scoundrels, but why do you always put them in charge?
I know from experience that by the time somebody’s scoundrelnature reveals itself, they have already embedded themselves so deeply into the day to day operations (ie “fundraising” and “expenses” and “board meetings”) - and have made themselves essentially indespensible (often only to the lama) that it just becomes entrenched. Even if the lama sees it, sometimes the motivation and energy to initiate disruption, conflict and change just isnt there. Sometimes its just lakcing in the students. No one is really there to step up and take over. I once got completely mistreated and harrassed by the two main dharma center scoundrels and the lama said, “ I like you but they’re not replaceable and you guys wont be able to co-exist, and it will probaly create bad vibes for others so....”. As he probably suspected, unlike the indispensable scoundrels, I just went quietly.

Its no different than politics and big business. Its usually the scoundrels, psychopaths and douchebags that are drawn to power and have the instinctive knack for obtaining it. The regular people with lives and the normal levels of shame and decency just move on.

Dharma centers are like psyche wards. They are not usually populated by stable, happy, well-adapted people. Those folks tend to eventually move out to the country or something and keep in touch with the lama through email.
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