Further abuses in Shambhala revealed in new statement from former Kusung

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Arupajhana7
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Further abuses in Shambhala revealed in new statement from former Kusung

Post by Arupajhana7 »

Article on pathos blog: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/americanb ... buddhism.h

Full document:

I've noticed that topics on abusive gurus tend to get locked in this forum. While I do believe right speech is a good guideline as a former shambhalian I appeal to everyone in Tibetan Buddhism to no longer enable its culture of abuse.

Silencing the topic is in my view one way of enabling such a culture. This is what I personally experienced in Shambhala. This is what the people in this statement too describe as their experience.

With that said, everyone please speak as respectfully as possible about these events and to eachother even if you disagree in your statements so that this thread may stay open and not get locked.
Arupajhana7
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Re: Further abuses in Shambhala revealed in new statement from former Kusung

Post by Arupajhana7 »

This is another article about a petition calling for local centers to separate themselves from the monarchy: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/americanb ... cture.html
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Re: Further abuses in Shambhala revealed in new statement from former Kusung

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Arupajhana7 wrote: Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:54 pm Article on pathos blog: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/americanb ... buddhism.h

Full document:

I've noticed that topics on abusive gurus tend to get locked in this forum. While I do believe right speech is a good guideline as a former shambhalian I appeal to everyone in Tibetan Buddhism to no longer enable its culture of abuse.

Silencing the topic is in my view one way of enabling such a culture. This is what I personally experienced in Shambhala. This is what the people in this statement too describe as their experience.

With that said, everyone please speak as respectfully as possible about these events and to eachother even if you disagree in your statements so that this thread may stay open and not get locked.
We have only locked threads where there is unnecessary nastiness going on, or where the conversation has ceased being about the subject. We have a number of threads on the issues with Shambhala, and have not censored any information related to them. If you have an issue with how things are moderated, you are welcome to contact us, including a direct PM to me or another team member, or a post in the moderation subforum.

Thanks.
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Re: Further abuses in Shambhala revealed in new statement from former Kusung

Post by DechenDave »

Anyone know why the whole org was handed over to Mr. Mukpo in the first place and not to the current Trungpa? I realize he was a kid when it occured but it seems a new, trusted regent would have been easier than what had actually taken place. Did Chogyam Trungpa actually name Mr. Mukpo as a potential successor?
I never understood this, (although I can imagine it’s sufficiently political as to warrant a caution to mind one’s speech).
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Re: Further abuses in Shambhala revealed in new statement from former Kusung

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

The current Trungpa R. was born on the other side of the globe. I think he’s still in eastern Tibet doing things the old fashioned way. Kinda hard to lead Shambhala like that. .

Personally I suspect his protectors might have had a hand in this arrangement.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: Further abuses in Shambhala revealed in new statement from former Kusung

Post by DechenDave »

smcj wrote: Mon Feb 18, 2019 10:30 pm The current Trungpa R. was born on the other side of the globe. I think he’s still in eastern Tibet doing things the old fashioned way.

Kinda hard to lead Shambhala that way.
Erm. Ok.
So he was offered and rejected the leadership? Lots of Lamas are able to run an international org from a distance with some travel.
Arupajhana7
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Re: Further abuses in Shambhala revealed in new statement from former Kusung

Post by Arupajhana7 »

DechenDave wrote: Mon Feb 18, 2019 10:13 pm Anyone know why the whole org was handed over to Mr. Mukpo in the first place and not to the current Trungpa? I realize he was a kid when it occured but it seems a new, trusted regent would have been easier than what had actually taken place. Did Chogyam Trungpa actually name Mr. Mukpo as a potential successor?
I never understood this, (although I can imagine it’s sufficiently political as to warrant a caution to mind one’s speech).
My understanding, from speaking with Shambhala old dogs, is that there were originally supposed to be two paths, the Kagyu Buddhist path and the Shambhala Secular path. The Regent was left in charge of the Kagyu path and I believe Osel Mukpo underwent a ceremony in which he was named as the next "Sakyong" of Shambhala. But I am not sure how literal this was meant to be interpreted.

Some old dogs have told me that the court and Sakyong King role were more tongue and cheek under Trungpa, that the whole thing was more like satire and that when apse Mukpo returned it became more literal. I can't attest to this personally, some other people feel CTR abused his powers as well.

The Kagyu path fell apart, or at least became very small, due to Thomas Rich's HIV scandal and subsequent death. Shortly after that Dilgo Kyentse Rinpoche announced that Osel Mukpo would take over as head of the Shambhala organization.

But the merger of Buddhism and Shambhala practices seemed to upset many of the "old dogs", many of whom left the sangha sometime after the Sakyong came back from India and took over.

For a while in the 90s Shambhala centers taught the secular Shambhala training while allowing other lamas and Rinpoches to come through and teach. One such teacher was Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso. It seems everyone i have heard of who studied and learned from this man has no regrets. He seems like he was the real deal from all accounts I have come accross.

But when SMR returned Shambhala centers (with rare exceptions such as SMC) stopped hosting other lamas and the entire community became more and more about revolving around the new "Sakyong" and everyone was being lead down a path towards a single guru.

Sorry I jumped around out of order a bit.
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Re: Further abuses in Shambhala revealed in new statement from former Kusung

Post by passel »

What Arupajhana describes matches what I've heard from folks who would know. I think the main thing to keep in mind when you're thinking it all through is that it has only ever been a series of ad hoc arrangements. There has never been a master plan, at least not an intelligible one. There's stuff in old letters where Trungpa is talking about when the Kingdom of Shambhala has a seat on the United Nations. Formal arrangements have come about where people have stepped into the chaos and explained how they thought it should be- it's all based on borrowed authority based on an inspiring but disorganized founder's inspiring but disorganized visionary writings.
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Re: Further abuses in Shambhala revealed in new statement from former Kusung

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

DechenDave wrote: Mon Feb 18, 2019 10:34 pm
smcj wrote: Mon Feb 18, 2019 10:30 pm The current Trungpa R. was born on the other side of the globe. I think he’s still in eastern Tibet doing things the old fashioned way.

Kinda hard to lead Shambhala that way.
Erm. Ok.
So he was offered and rejected the leadership? Lots of Lamas are able to run an international org from a distance with some travel.
I don’t know if he was offered a role or not.

The last I heard he was a young man in eastern Tibet. That information is quite old now. At that time I was given the impression he was receiving a traditional training.

I haven’t followed his activities. If anyone has an update on him please feel free to contribute.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: Further abuses in Shambhala revealed in new statement from former Kusung

Post by Nemo »

At least in the real army we supported each other and knew the brass was full of shit. We had each other. This is some Rajneesh level bullshit. The generation of Tibetans that grew up in India often remind me of the Hindu con men in the 70s. I wish it didn't.
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Re: Further abuses in Shambhala revealed in new statement from former Kusung

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

A recent NYC Shambhala Center podcast.

https://ny.shambhala.org/?powerpress_pinw=6505-podcast


They talk about the current state of the organization a bit starting at 25 minutes remaining in the podcast. The NYC center was closed recently due to finances.

Nothing alarming or earth shaking. Just FYI in case people are interested. I stumbled on it trying to research what “secular Shambhala” means.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: Further abuses in Shambhala revealed in new statement from former Kusung

Post by Josef »

DechenDave wrote: Mon Feb 18, 2019 10:34 pm
smcj wrote: Mon Feb 18, 2019 10:30 pm The current Trungpa R. was born on the other side of the globe. I think he’s still in eastern Tibet doing things the old fashioned way.

Kinda hard to lead Shambhala that way.
Erm. Ok.
So he was offered and rejected the leadership? Lots of Lamas are able to run an international org from a distance with some travel.
It seems unlikely that the individual recognized as the tulku of Trungpa will ever set foot in the country from which his predecessors son is fleeing prosecution for grotesque levels of abuse. This has been decades in the making. I find it extremely unlikely that the current tulkus handlers would be willing to put him in a position that embroiled him in this.
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Re: Further abuses in Shambhala revealed in new statement from former Kusung

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

at least this is still a lesson: one must examine the teacher, investigate him without self-delusion.

evidently this is of mayor importance.
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Re: Further abuses in Shambhala revealed in new statement from former Kusung

Post by Arupajhana7 »

Sorry the link to the Patheos article in my original post isn't working. Here is the correct link: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/americanb ... dhism.html
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Re: Further abuses in Shambhala revealed in new statement from former Kusung

Post by PeterC »

DechenDave wrote: Mon Feb 18, 2019 10:34 pm
smcj wrote: Mon Feb 18, 2019 10:30 pm The current Trungpa R. was born on the other side of the globe. I think he’s still in eastern Tibet doing things the old fashioned way.

Kinda hard to lead Shambhala that way.
Erm. Ok.
So he was offered and rejected the leadership? Lots of Lamas are able to run an international org from a distance with some travel.
I don't think any serious offer was ever made, nor any real effort to support him by the 'shambhala' 'sangha'.

Sort of feels like they're flogging a dead windhorse at this point. Not all termas that are available are revealed - it depends on the conditions of the terton: not all termas that are revealed are practiced and disseminated: and not all lineages survive, they rise and fall according to the needs of sentient beings and the karma and activities of the lineage holders. HHDKR asked to receive Mukpo Sr.'s termas, so clearly he felt they had value. But perhaps they will eventually end up as one of the many sets of termas that just didn't survive.
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Re: Further abuses in Shambhala revealed in new statement from former Kusung

Post by Arupajhana7 »

I found this discussion to be very helpful:

TsultimNamdak
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Re: Further abuses in Shambhala revealed in new statement from former Kusung

Post by TsultimNamdak »

A general comment: I would have thought that establishing an organisation that mimicks a royal court, including guards, a court, courtesans and royal titles (do the really, as mentioned in the article, address Mukpo as "Your Majesty"?!) is a very bad idea. It can only go terribly wrong. Just stop it now and go back to practising the Dharma.
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Re: Further abuses in Shambhala revealed in new statement from former Kusung

Post by PSM »

Nemo wrote: Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:18 am At least in the real army we supported each other and knew the brass was full of shit. We had each other. This is some Rajneesh level bullshit. The generation of Tibetans that grew up in India often remind me of the Hindu con men in the 70s. I wish it didn't.
I'd trust Osho a lot more than some of the stuff I read about here.

Once thing that really makes me highly suspicious (in general) is when heavy amounts of LARPing are involved. That nearly always points to bullsh*t (you can see this in martial arts too, for example). Shambhala seems to have been very LARPy from the very inception. IMHO life's too short to have to extricate the valuable practices from the aesthetically pleasing chaff.
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Re: Further abuses in Shambhala revealed in new statement from former Kusung

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

“LARPing”. I had to look it up. I like it.

BTW I get most of my education about modern culture from DW.
——-
I actually think the best news regarding Shambhala is that this thread is lethargic. Hopefully people are getting tired of their own outrage. Wouldn’t that be nice?
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: Further abuses in Shambhala revealed in new statement from former Kusung

Post by Nemo »

PSM wrote: Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:15 pm
Nemo wrote: Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:18 am At least in the real army we supported each other and knew the brass was full of shit. We had each other. This is some Rajneesh level bullshit. The generation of Tibetans that grew up in India often remind me of the Hindu con men in the 70s. I wish it didn't.
I'd trust Osho a lot more than some of the stuff I read about here.

Once thing that really makes me highly suspicious (in general) is when heavy amounts of LARPing are involved. That nearly always points to bullsh*t (you can see this in martial arts too, for example). Shambhala seems to have been very LARPy from the very inception. IMHO life's too short to have to extricate the valuable practices from the aesthetically pleasing chaff.

Osho also had the class to commit suicide when it all fell apart. The paranoia in the inner circle must be delicious now. Add in some belt tightening from reduced donations and legals costs and this should continue to be interesting. So many arrogant jerks approaching retirement age with declining looks and no means of support other than fleecing newbies. :popcorn:

Those who gave everything and are guiltless must be a mess. Sadly in Canada they have no legal recourse. The prescience of moving their is becoming very apparent. I guess I better start working on that basement inlaw suite. Many practitioners did not plan for the current economy and old age. Female only obviously since it is Shambala. At 60 it is best to take your pension in Canada if you don't have many high income earning years. Waiting just reduces your OAS/GIS at 65 dollar for dollar. With free accommodation a practitioner can live comfortably off 1200 CAD a month. Without it, no. Too bad some of the Shambala properties could not be turned into Old Age facilities instead of being sold to pay for Mukpos's lifestyle.
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