Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB

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tatpurusa
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Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB

Post by tatpurusa »

fckw wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:36 pm So much about making precise distinctions: if it was a “Hindu” mahasiddha it follows that s/he was not a tantrika but a verdantist? :shrug:
No. All mahasiddhas are tantrikas and not vedantins.
In fact, even in Hindu tantras you can find very bad opinions about the vedas themselves.

tp.
Last edited by tatpurusa on Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Varis
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Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB

Post by Varis »

Can someone make a separate thread on the Mahasiddhas? I'd like to participate in that discussion but don't want to take away from OP's question.
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Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB

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tatpurusa wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:44 pm
fckw wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:36 pm So much about making precise distinctions: if it was a “Hindu” mahasiddha it follows that s/he was not a tantrika but a verdantist? :shrug:
No. All mahasiddhas are tantrikas and not vedantins.
In fact, even in Hindu tantras you can find very bad opinions about the vedas themselves.

tp.
So they are Nath or Kaula, the point remains the same.
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tatpurusa
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Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB

Post by tatpurusa »

Grigoris wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:55 pm
tatpurusa wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:44 pm
fckw wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:36 pm So much about making precise distinctions: if it was a “Hindu” mahasiddha it follows that s/he was not a tantrika but a verdantist? :shrug:
No. All mahasiddhas are tantrikas and not vedantins.
In fact, even in Hindu tantras you can find very bad opinions about the vedas themselves.

tp.
So they are Nath or Kaula, the point remains the same.
Yes.
Vedanta is a very different tradition. Only very recently have there been attempts to reinterpret Hindu tantras
form a vedantic point of view.
Varis
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Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB

Post by Varis »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:58 pm
Grigoris wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:46 pm
tatpurusa wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:35 pm And also Mina/Matsyendra/Luipa
There is no mention in Luipa's biography that he held a Hindu lineage. Just that his teacher was Savaripa.

You are right about Minapa though. He is supposed to have received his practice directly from Mahadeva himself.
Goraksanatha was his disciple.
The traditional association of Goraksanath and Matsyendranath appears a bit unusual because historically Goraksanath wasn't alive during the time of Matsyendranath; and Goraksanath rejected the practices of Mastyendranath's Yogini Kaula school in his writings.
Last edited by Varis on Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Adamantine
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Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB

Post by Adamantine »

How does all of this history of Buddhist tantrikas battling Hindus or Bonpos in debate, winning and apparently humiliating them.. jive with the 12th root downfall of the 14? "To cause those beings who have faith
To grow disillusioned is the twelfth.", as I was taught this applies to those with faith in other traditions, not just other Buddhists...
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Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
Malcolm
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Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB

Post by Malcolm »

Adamantine wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:35 am How does all of this history of Buddhist tantrikas battling Hindus or Bonpos in debate, winning and apparently humiliating them.. jive with the 12th root downfall of the 14? "To cause those beings who have faith
To grow disillusioned is the twelfth.", as I was taught this applies to those with faith in other traditions, not just other Buddhists...
It does not in fact apply, since these Hindus and Bonpos actively sought to harm Buddhadharma, or so it is told.
PeterC
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Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB

Post by PeterC »

The Nath Mahasiddhas are a problem only if you consider the Nath history to be authoritative. A doctrine-adherent Buddhist probably would not. From a historical perspective, it would be most easily explained by seeing the Nath lineage as a modified offshoot of Buddhism in the first place - or at least, borrowing heavily from their traditions and practices
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Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB

Post by amanitamusc »

Since we are talking Mahasiddha's.Osho had a sweet tooth for Tilopa. :yinyang:
https://www.amazon.com/Only-One-Sky-Tan ... 0525474404
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Adamantine
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Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB

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Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:20 am
Adamantine wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:35 am How does all of this history of Buddhist tantrikas battling Hindus or Bonpos in debate, winning and apparently humiliating them.. jive with the 12th root downfall of the 14? "To cause those beings who have faith
To grow disillusioned is the twelfth.", as I was taught this applies to those with faith in other traditions, not just other Buddhists...
It does not in fact apply, since these Hindus and Bonpos actively sought to harm Buddhadharma, or so it is told.


I see. So that’s a context for one type of exception..
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
ford_truckin
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Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB

Post by ford_truckin »

amanitamusc wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:07 am Since we are talking Mahasiddha's.Osho had a sweet tooth for Tilopa. :yinyang:
https://www.amazon.com/Only-One-Sky-Tan ... 0525474404
Osho the greatest non-buddhist master of all time :bow:
PeterC
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Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB

Post by PeterC »

ford_truckin wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:17 am
amanitamusc wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:07 am Since we are talking Mahasiddha's.Osho had a sweet tooth for Tilopa. :yinyang:
https://www.amazon.com/Only-One-Sky-Tan ... 0525474404
Osho the greatest non-buddhist master of all time :bow:
:popcorn:
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Grigoris
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Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB

Post by Grigoris »

Adamantine wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:46 amI see. So that’s a context for one type of exception..
And once that stage is set...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Grigoris
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Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB

Post by Grigoris »

amanitamusc wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:07 am Since we are talking Mahasiddha's.Osho had a sweet tooth for Tilopa. :yinyang:
https://www.amazon.com/Only-One-Sky-Tan ... 0525474404
He had a sweet tooth for anything that would make him money...
ford_truckin wrote:Osho the greatest non-buddhist master of all time :bow:
One of the greatest modern spiritual capitalists, definitely.

Now that you all have finished trolling can we get back to topic?

Thank you!
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Malcolm
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Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB

Post by Malcolm »

Adamantine wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:46 am
Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:20 am
Adamantine wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:35 am How does all of this history of Buddhist tantrikas battling Hindus or Bonpos in debate, winning and apparently humiliating them.. jive with the 12th root downfall of the 14? "To cause those beings who have faith
To grow disillusioned is the twelfth.", as I was taught this applies to those with faith in other traditions, not just other Buddhists...
It does not in fact apply, since these Hindus and Bonpos actively sought to harm Buddhadharma, or so it is told.


I see. So that’s a context for one type of exception..
Aside from that, there is the fact that 12th samaya only applies to Buddhists. It has nothing to do with nonbuddhists at all, despite what you may have been told.
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Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB

Post by Adamantine »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:56 pm
Adamantine wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:46 am
Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:20 am

It does not in fact apply, since these Hindus and Bonpos actively sought to harm Buddhadharma, or so it is told.


I see. So that’s a context for one type of exception..
Aside from that, there is the fact that 12th samaya only applies to Buddhists. It has nothing to do with nonbuddhists at all, despite what you may have been told.
I see.. I’ve heard mixed things probably here on dharma forums... upon reflection I actually don’t recall if I’ve heard this downfall elaborated by any of my own teachers... possibly not. Alexander Berzin makes it even more specific: as regarding other practitioners of Tantra:
(12) Deterring those with faith

This refers to purposely discouraging people from a particular tantric practice in which they have faith and for which they are fit vessels, with proper empowerment and so forth. If we cause their wish to engage in this practice to end, this root downfall is complete. If they are not yet ready for such practice, however, there is no fault in outlining in a realistic manner what they must master first, even if it might seem daunting. Engaging others like this, taking them and their interests seriously rather than belittling them as incapable, actually boosts their self-confidence to forge ahead.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB

Post by haha »

For Mulapatti, following verses from fifth chapter of Bodhicharyavatara are also useful.

hīnotkṛṣṭeṣu dharmeṣu samaṃ gauravamācaret||89||
nodāradharmapātraṃ ca hīne dharme niyojayet|
na cācāraṃ parityajya sūtramantraiḥ pralobhayet||90||

(Although)! Should always pay equal respect
To the Dharmas of the lesser and higher beings.||89||
I should not communicate the Dharma of a lesser being
To one who is a vessel for the vast Dharma.
I must not forsake the (Bodhisattva) way of life,
Nor mislead others by means of sutras or mantras.||90||



bhava wrote: Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:07 am
One of the benefits of studying various systems is that one’s view will be heavily refined and one will be free from doubt. In another word, other systems will show your view in the mirror. There is nothing wrong about learning the other systems. Checkout the Pramanavartika; he could not show the flaw on other systems if he had not well versed in narratives of those indian philosophical systems. Otherwise, your position is like the modern days Buddhist teachers who believe that Atama goes from one life to another (i.e. they believe it is Advait Vedanta view). So it is better to check out the interpretation of their systems from the authentic lineage.

However, how well Advait Vedanta explains on Adisthan, which is nothing but the Satkaya dristi from the Buddhist prospective. Probably, Advait Vednata and Dzogchen are new development of 7-century and onward; and they were refining there views by refuting other systems for few centuries. (Just my opinion)
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Re: Mind essence introduced in advaita and TB

Post by Vaktar »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:42 pm
The main claim for Buddhist influence on Shankara comes from the fact that his paramaguru was a guy named Gaudapāda, the fourth chapter of whose Agamaśastra seems to borrow heavily from Madhyamaka and Yogacāra arguments, somewhat indiscriminately, to refute Samkhya and Vaiśesika scholars, and to propose ajativāda. However, given that Shankara does in fact go to great lengths to forestall the criticism of being a crypto-Buddhist, this should perhaps lead us to conclude that he wasn't a crypto-Buddhist,, and that his opponents such as Vijñāna Bhikṣu, Ramanuja, and so on, were all just a bit lazy in their thinking.
On the other hand, considering that his self-"branding", if you will, is strictly Vedantic (i.e., purporting to represent the inner or final significance of the Vedas) it's utterly in his self-interest to demonstrate his fitness in refuting accusations of being influenced by Buddhism. Therefore all his denials of being a pracana-bauddha are suspect. Even if he were not influenced by Buddhism, he'd have to deny it -- and if he were influenced, he'd have to deny it even more.

I'm sure it could be argued that his debt to Buddhism is significant, even if he is not much like Gaudapada and could not, except for polemical reasons, be reasonably labeled a crypto-buddhist. However there is no point to it -- it wouldn't convert any Vedantins, and won't make any of us enlightened. But still, I'm quite sure Buddhism must have influenced him greatly.

For example, if an amateur boxer disliked black people enough, they might develop their style drawing inspiration from the Rocky movie series, in which case, they wouldn't be a very good boxer, of course. But if they happened to watch even a little footage of Ali, it would be hard not to take inspiration or be influenced by that, because Mohammed Ali was...the greatest. If Ali had never existed, the silly Rocky movies would never have been made as a half-assed attempt at dramatizing white boxing's fantasy comeuppance.

Similarly with Shankara's happenstance study of Buddhism, and his vehement denials of being influenced thereby. If there was no Buddhism, there'd be no Shankara trying to prove that the Vedas have "the nuts", or the best hand, philosophically speaking. I think Shankara's thought is weak, as far as upaya or liberative methodology goes, and laden with contradictions, as far as philosophical groundwork is concerned. But nevertheless, Shankara's literary edifice looks pretty solid from a scholarly point of view. Shankara is like the ninety-pound weakling turned into a Dynamic Tension stud after getting sand kicked in his face. (Except in this case, IMO, substitute "Static Fixation" for "Dynamic Tension"). )
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