Difficulty doing Manjushri practices and prayers due to negative association

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pueraeternus
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Re: Difficulty doing Manjushri practices and prayers due to negative association

Post by pueraeternus »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:15 pm
pueraeternus wrote: Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:01 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:37 pm


Go meet HH Sakya Trizin, Mañjuśṛī in person, and receive Mañjuśṛī practice from him.
Just to clarify, do you mean the now Sakya Trichen (41st HHST) or the current 42nd HHST?
Sakya Trichen, old habits die hard.
Fortunately for all of us, he is still actively teaching and seems to be in good health.
"Men must want to do things out of their own innermost drives. People, not commercial organizations or chains of command, are what make great civilizations work. Every civilization depends upon the quality of the individuals it produces. If you over-organize humans, over-legalize them, suppress their urge to greatness - they cannot work and their civilization collapses."
- A letter to CHOAM, attributed to the Preacher
Sennin
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Re: Difficulty doing Manjushri practices and prayers due to negative association

Post by Sennin »

pueraeternus wrote: Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:29 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:15 pm
pueraeternus wrote: Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:01 pm

Just to clarify, do you mean the now Sakya Trichen (41st HHST) or the current 42nd HHST?
Sakya Trichen, old habits die hard.
Fortunately for all of us, he is still actively teaching and seems to be in good health.
:thumbsup:
I have no doubt he us Guru Rinpoche, Manjusri and the overlord of hundreds of mandalas.
Just listening to him give lung can elicit meditative experiences.
Observe the difference between the Lord of All Victors, Padmasambhava, and the mahasiddhas of India and Tibet.
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Karinos
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Re: Difficulty doing Manjushri practices and prayers due to negative association

Post by Karinos »

In the sutras (Avatamsaka Sutra, Lotus Sutra) Manjushri abide in his Pure Land - Vimala in another universe, wherein he manifests himself as the Buddha which he actually already is. He is in fact a perfect Buddha who among many vows - vowed to emanate all over the universes as a Bodhisattva to put the hard questions to the Nirmanakaya Buddhas on the topics of voidness, freedom, the nature of the self etc. In the popular Tibetan mythology, Manjushri abides in his earthly Pure Land at the magical Five Mountain Paradise (Ch. Wutaishan; T. Riwo Tsenga) in northeast China.

now knowing above, how come any of living Rinpoche of past of future can be actual Manjusri - himself - in person. That is just such a limitation of this extraorodinary Bodhisattva. There can be millions of millions emanations yes, some of them very special emanations like 3 great emanations of Manjusri prophesied by Buddha (Jamyang namsu): Sakya Pandita; Longchenpa; Tsongkhapa. There were many others, but still they are emanations.

Tibetans also have long standing tradition of calling extraordinary Lamas by Bodhisattva/Buddha name recognizing their special qualities. Sometimes it's just a marketing, sometimes it out of actual pure vision or very deep respect. But it's just a title - that's all.

PS. I have no doubts HH Sakya Trichen is emanation of Manjusri :namaste:
Malcolm
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Re: Difficulty doing Manjushri practices and prayers due to negative association

Post by Malcolm »

Karinos wrote: Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:30 pm now knowing above, how come any of living Rinpoche of past of future can be actual Manjusri - himself - in person.
Because Mañjuśṛī, in person, is beyond limitations.
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PeterC
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Re: Difficulty doing Manjushri practices and prayers due to negative association

Post by PeterC »

Karinos wrote: Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:30 pm now knowing above, how come any of living Rinpoche of past of future can be actual Manjusri - himself - in person. That is just such a limitation of this extraorodinary Bodhisattva. There can be millions of millions emanations yes, some of them very special emanations like 3 great emanations of Manjusri prophesied by Buddha (Jamyang namsu): Sakya Pandita; Longchenpa; Tsongkhapa. There were many others, but still they are emanations.
HH41ST is Manjusri, but Manjusri is not only HH41ST. Other living lamas are too
PS. I have no doubts HH Sakya Trichen is emanation of Manjusri :namaste:
Nor I :)
kausalya
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Re: Difficulty doing Manjushri practices and prayers due to negative association

Post by kausalya »

Arupajhana7 wrote: Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:07 am Hello all,

I am a recovering Shambhalian. In Shambhala we were taught that the "Sakyong" is an emenation of Manjushri and that doing Manjushri practice or any prayers with Manjushri in them would strengthen our karmic connection to the "Sakyong".

Given that it has come out that Mukpo has sexually abused many women I now feel quite negatively about him. I don't want to strengthen any karmic connections to him as a teacher.

I now have very negative emotions come up whenever I think about Manjushri too. I actively avoid prayers and practices that involve Manjushri.

I would like to believe that Manjushri is not actually uniquely tied to Osel Mukpo but this has been entrained in my mind quite strongly.

So I have two questions regarding Manjushri

1. Do you think Osel Mukpo is actually an emanation of Manjusjri? / what are some teachings that would imply less of this special connection than I was taught?

2. What are good ways to get over such a major block to Manjushri practices (and prayers)?

While I am here I also want to ask,

3. Is there really a consensus in the Tibetan community that Osel Mukpo is the reincarnation of Mipham the Great? What is the argument that he is? What is the argument that he is not?

I know this is a controversial topic area so I am hoping not to ignite a flame war while still getting genuine answers to these questions. So if we can stick to the questions that would be great.

Thank you.
Please keep in mind throughout this post that these are only my thoughts! Your post caught my eye because I've had difficulty relating with Manjushri in the past, too, although I couldn't tell you why even if I wanted to.

(Karma is karma, you know. We practice from where we're at, with what's around us. Manjushri in nirmanakaya form may have no place in your life, and that's fine. No one can judge that as good or bad if it's realistic. We don't have time for everyone on the planet; only those who come to us needing help.)

1. At an ultimate level, everything is Manjushri. However, if you can't see him as Manjushri, that's not a problem with you, just the way it is. The problem arises where people encourage guru devotion before the student understands it and enters into that relationship willingly. If he sees you struggling needlessly, the teacher should adapt his teaching to you, in order for good results to come & for the student to develop faith.

Wrathful "my way or the highway" style stuff doesn't get very far with most people, and is generally a recipe for disaster in the hands of the wrong person. Simply put: no one should blame you for not having karma with them. Manjushri is simply one method, and the wisdom of knowing when that method is used & to what degree. You have already used your wisdom by removing yourself from there!

If this guy is Manjushri for real, then any Samaya that existed between you is intact, because you took the appropriate action. This, in my opinion, is the only way it makes sense to look at it. Your slate is clean, time to move on.

2. Do you really need to do Manjushri practices? Perhaps just enough to realize that Manjushri is equal to whatever practice you prefer. Try dissolving him into your Yidam or vice-versa until it becomes natural. My feeling is that reciting prayers that someone else has written won't work -- that's not where your heart really is. Instead, ask Manjushri yourself for enough wisdom to clear this obstacle, which can take whatever form it takes.
"For as long as space remains,
For as long as sentient beings remain,
Until then may I too remain
To dispel the miseries of the world."
(Shantideva)
Crazywisdom
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Re: Difficulty doing Manjushri practices and prayers due to negative association

Post by Crazywisdom »

Arupajhana7 wrote: Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:07 am Hello all,

I am a recovering Shambhalian. In Shambhala we were taught that the "Sakyong" is an emenation of Manjushri and that doing Manjushri practice or any prayers with Manjushri in them would strengthen our karmic connection to the "Sakyong".

Given that it has come out that Mukpo has sexually abused many women I now feel quite negatively about him. I don't want to strengthen any karmic connections to him as a teacher.

I now have very negative emotions come up whenever I think about Manjushri too. I actively avoid prayers and practices that involve Manjushri.

I would like to believe that Manjushri is not actually uniquely tied to Osel Mukpo but this has been entrained in my mind quite strongly.

So I have two questions regarding Manjushri

1. Do you think Osel Mukpo is actually an emanation of Manjusjri? / what are some teachings that would imply less of this special connection than I was taught?

2. What are good ways to get over such a major block to Manjushri practices (and prayers)?

While I am here I also want to ask,

3. Is there really a consensus in the Tibetan community that Osel Mukpo is the reincarnation of Mipham the Great? What is the argument that he is? What is the argument that he is not?

I know this is a controversial topic area so I am hoping not to ignite a flame war while still getting genuine answers to these questions. So if we can stick to the questions that would be great.

Thank you.
You have to take such claims more as analogous than actual. “he’s so Buddha like it’s as if he’s manjushri in the flesh.” When that no longer appears to be the case, I’d concede it’s not.

It has nothing to do with Manjushri who is just discriminating wisdom, as in precision dharma. Once that laser cutter becomes a Stone Age knife, it’s not so precise. Gross conduct is opposite to precise. So I think you may want to stay with Manjushri and gather that experience a bit with another master. If you have already you might think, “I know Manjushri, you’re no Manjushri.” Then move on.

Also remember the manifestations are methods not folk. If someone has mastered a method it’s as if they are one and the same, like sushi chefs are like sushi machines. For me it makes more sense. If the sushi chef got sloppy his career is over. That’s how it is. And should be.

There are many Manjushri.
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.
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