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Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:38 pm
by Greg
She was one of his several wives in the 80s and a member of his inner circle. I don't know her personally but that much is not disputed by anyone.

Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:49 pm
by dzogchungpa
heart wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:22 pm Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR, Leslie Hays says CTR tortured a cat.

Is there anyone here that actually know Leslie Hays and that can vouch for her stories?

/magnus


Magnus, are you suggesting that we should not just take everything that Hays says at face value but that we should actually examine her statements at least somwhat critically? What a novel idea!

Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:08 pm
by heart
dzogchungpa wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:49 pm
heart wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:22 pm Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR, Leslie Hays says CTR tortured a cat.

Is there anyone here that actually know Leslie Hays and that can vouch for her stories?

/magnus


Magnus, are you suggesting that we should not just take everything that Hays says at face value but that we should actually examine her statements at least somwhat critically? What a novel idea!
Yes, that is what I am suggesting. :smile:

/magnus

Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:13 am
by Greg
dzogchungpa wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:49 pm
heart wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:22 pm Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR, Leslie Hays says CTR tortured a cat.

Is there anyone here that actually know Leslie Hays and that can vouch for her stories?

/magnus


Magnus, are you suggesting that we should not just take everything that Hays says at face value but that we should actually examine her statements at least somwhat critically? What a novel idea!
It would be great if investigative journalists looked into what she has to say. The cat story has a certain amount of collaboration. I believe her.

In any case, we are seeing more and more people emboldened to come forward with unwelcome information despite the best efforts of many to silence them, so hopefully there will be greater opportunity for examination. Information suppression isn’t what it used to be, as we are seeing.

Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:25 am
by dzogchungpa
Greg wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:13 amIn any case, we are seeing more and more people emboldened to come forward with unwelcome information despite the best efforts of many to silence them, so hopefully there will be greater opportunity for examination. Information suppression isn’t what it used to be, as we are seeing.

The point is, the ability to propgate bullshit is also much greater now so one has to be even more critical than before. Mind you, it's entirely possible that Hays is telling the complete truth and that Akong Rinpoche did in fact kidnap and torture a little boy. I don't know. Do you?

Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:33 am
by Rinchen Samphel
dzogchungpa wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:25 am
The point is, the ability to propgate bullshit is also much greater now so one has to be even more critical than before. Mind you, it's entirely possible that Hays is telling the complete truth and that Akong Rinpoche did in fact kidnap and torture a little boy. I don't know. Do you?
Wait, so what is your view on all of this? What was your point in making this thread? (Im not implying anything, just would like to actually know) Because, I cant tell if i am receiving mixed signals or not.

Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:02 am
by Greg
dzogchungpa wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:25 am
Greg wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:13 amIn any case, we are seeing more and more people emboldened to come forward with unwelcome information despite the best efforts of many to silence them, so hopefully there will be greater opportunity for examination. Information suppression isn’t what it used to be, as we are seeing.

The point is, the ability to propgate bullshit is also much greater now so one has to be even more critical than before. Mind you, it's entirely possible that Hays is telling the complete truth and that Akong Rinpoche did in fact kidnap and torture a little boy. I don't know. Do you?
I have no idea about the Akong claims.

Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:06 am
by Stewart
dzogchungpa wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:25 am
Greg wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:13 amIn any case, we are seeing more and more people emboldened to come forward with unwelcome information despite the best efforts of many to silence them, so hopefully there will be greater opportunity for examination. Information suppression isn’t what it used to be, as we are seeing.

The point is, the ability to propgate bullshit is also much greater now so one has to be even more critical than before. Mind you, it's entirely possible that Hays is telling the complete truth and that Akong Rinpoche did in fact kidnap and torture a little boy. I don't know. Do you?
No, we don't know, and neither doea Hays, at best she's repeating something she's heard second hand.

What we can do is make an educated judgement however. As I mentioned, I lived at Samye Ling for several years, and knew AR up to his death in 2013 ...I seen Akong Rinpoche often, dealing with him directly, in private also, he never betrayed his calm and humble personality, he played himself down and never portrayed himself as a siddha or even a Lama. He was always reliable, like a rock. I've also seen him overcome seemingly impossible situations and move on to the next thing as if nothing happened. He was a really exceptional person.

One of my closest friends was his attendant for nearly 20 years, travelled with him all over world, spent the vast majority of his days at his side. He said to me once that he never seen AR lose his composure or be phased by anything whatsoever.

I could recount stories about him which stuck with me, especially regarding his death, before and after, but i won't here, but i am 100% convinced he was a person of quality, no scandals, but also no big fanfare.

So i might not 'know'... but I've got a pretty good idea.

Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:07 am
by Greg
I can tell you that the plan to seize control of Nova Scotia by force if necessary was still paid lip service to at Vajrayana seminary as late as the early aughts. Not sure if anyone ever spilled those beans before Leslie.

Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:51 am
by dzogchungpa
Rinchen Samphel wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:33 am
dzogchungpa wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:25 amThe point is, the ability to propgate bullshit is also much greater now so one has to be even more critical than before. Mind you, it's entirely possible that Hays is telling the complete truth and that Akong Rinpoche did in fact kidnap and torture a little boy. I don't know. Do you?
Wait, so what is your view on all of this? What was your point in making this thread? (Im not implying anything, just would like to actually know) Because, I cant tell if i am receiving mixed signals or not.


If by "all of this" you mean Hays' statement re Akong R my view is that I don't know what actually happened. My point in making this thread is to stimulate discussion concerning Hays' statement, possibly turning up relevant information.

Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:15 am
by Schrödinger’s Yidam
You guys do know that beatings were common in pre-PRC monasteries, right?

Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:30 am
by Malcolm
smcj wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:15 am You guys do know that beatings were common in pre-PRC monasteries, right?
As well as pre 1959 elemtary schools in the USA...

Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:47 am
by Tenma
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:30 am
smcj wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:15 am You guys do know that beatings were common in pre-PRC monasteries, right?
As well as pre 1959 elemtary schools in the USA...
Dang...

Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:59 am
by PeterC
dzogchungpa wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:51 am
Rinchen Samphel wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:33 am
dzogchungpa wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:25 amThe point is, the ability to propgate bullshit is also much greater now so one has to be even more critical than before. Mind you, it's entirely possible that Hays is telling the complete truth and that Akong Rinpoche did in fact kidnap and torture a little boy. I don't know. Do you?
Wait, so what is your view on all of this? What was your point in making this thread? (Im not implying anything, just would like to actually know) Because, I cant tell if i am receiving mixed signals or not.


If by "all of this" you mean Hays' statement re Akong R my view is that I don't know what actually happened. My point in making this thread is to stimulate discussion concerning Hays' statement, possibly turning up relevant information.

The bar for these claims to be credible is extraordinarily high, given Akong R’s character and integrity. Unless Hays has better proof than is in that post, we probably aren’t helping anyone by repeating them.

Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:06 am
by dzogchungpa
PeterC wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:59 am
dzogchungpa wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:51 am
Rinchen Samphel wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:33 amWait, so what is your view on all of this? What was your point in making this thread? (Im not implying anything, just would like to actually know) Because, I cant tell if i am receiving mixed signals or not.


If by "all of this" you mean Hays' statement re Akong R my view is that I don't know what actually happened. My point in making this thread is to stimulate discussion concerning Hays' statement, possibly turning up relevant information.

The bar for these claims to be credible is extraordinarily high, given Akong R’s character and integrity. Unless Hays has better proof than is in that post, we probably aren’t helping anyone by repeating them.


I don't actually know much about Akong R but it seems that Leslie Hays is considered to be a reliable source of information these days, so I thought it was worth discussing.

Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:23 am
by Malcolm
dzogchungpa wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:06 am
PeterC wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:59 am
dzogchungpa wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:51 am



If by "all of this" you mean Hays' statement re Akong R my view is that I don't know what actually happened. My point in making this thread is to stimulate discussion concerning Hays' statement, possibly turning up relevant information.

The bar for these claims to be credible is extraordinarily high, given Akong R’s character and integrity. Unless Hays has better proof than is in that post, we probably aren’t helping anyone by repeating them.


I don't actually know much about Akong R but it seems that Leslie Hays is considered to be a reliable source of information these days, so I thought it was worth discussing.
She seems reliable with respect to her first hand accounts of what she personally saw, as to what she heard second hand...no one alive can say one way or another

Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:28 am
by dharmafootsteps
Has anyone heard Akong Rinpoche's younger brother, Lama Yeshe Losal Rinpoche's, take on the situation?

He was good friends with CTR in the early days, who it seems was regarded as bad influence on him by others, particularly AR. However, he eventually came around, returned to Samye Ling and became a great yogi. Having been on both sides, I'd be interested to know how views CTR, his legacy and Shambala these days. Did he completely come round to AR's perspective?

Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:37 am
by dzogchungpa
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:23 am
dzogchungpa wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:06 amI don't actually know much about Akong R but it seems that Leslie Hays is considered to be a reliable source of information these days, so I thought it was worth discussing.
She seems reliable with respect to her first hand accounts of what she personally saw, as to what she heard second hand...no one alive can say one way or another

Very good. She seems reliable with respect to her first hand accounts of what she personally saw, so her other statements are worthy of discussion. At least that's how it seems to me.

Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:10 am
by amanitamusc
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:30 am
smcj wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:15 am You guys do know that beatings were common in pre-PRC monasteries, right?
As well as pre 1959 elemtary schools in the USA...
This went on into the mid 60's in central mass when i was in elementary
school.

Re: Leslie Hays says Akong R kidnapped and tortured SMR

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:36 am
by PeterC
dzogchungpa wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:06 am
PeterC wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:59 am
dzogchungpa wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:51 am



If by "all of this" you mean Hays' statement re Akong R my view is that I don't know what actually happened. My point in making this thread is to stimulate discussion concerning Hays' statement, possibly turning up relevant information.

The bar for these claims to be credible is extraordinarily high, given Akong R’s character and integrity. Unless Hays has better proof than is in that post, we probably aren’t helping anyone by repeating them.


I don't actually know much about Akong R but it seems that Leslie Hays is considered to be a reliable source of information these days, so I thought it was worth discussing.
Far, though there is a world of difference between first- and second-hand reports, and in this case we need to take note of where she received this story from.

I think you’ve heard the consensus on Akong Rinpoche’s character on this thread - he couldn’t be more different from CTR. It may be worth your reading a little about him. I find him a very inspiring person.