Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
The latest post from the Sakyong where he once again talks about himself in some detail is again notable for his lack of notice given to the victims in all this. Once again a non-apology influenced by our legal system, such as it is.
And for the news of a self-immolation...I can't even begin to fathom that. May their friends and family find some understanding and any available comfort in all of it. And may it never happen again because of the current causes and conditions.
And for the news of a self-immolation...I can't even begin to fathom that. May their friends and family find some understanding and any available comfort in all of it. And may it never happen again because of the current causes and conditions.
"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."
– Longchenpa.
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."
– Longchenpa.
Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Seems pretty clear to several women in his community.dzogchungpa wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:47 pm Is it actually clear that he still has a problem with alcohol?
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
From chimechofra’s post higher on the previous page, quoting Sakyong Mipham:dzogchungpa wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:47 pm Is it actually clear that he still has a problem with alcohol?
It would seem that it is not in the distant past.Since then, I have consciously worked on improving my relationship to alcohol as well as trying to improve my general behavior and my relationship to others as a teacher and as a person. Personal development and learning is a lifelong process and I know that I must continuously apply myself and hear the feedback that I am getting. I feel tremendous regret and sadness, and I commit myself to continuing this healing.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Malcolm wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:06 amSeems pretty clear to several women in his community.dzogchungpa wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:47 pm Is it actually clear that he still has a problem with alcohol?
If you are referring to the women whose accounts appear in the report, my understanding is that the most recent one is from 2011. A woman who has apparently served as his kasung or kusung or something in recent years said on the Shambhala FB group that he no longer drank like that. I could try to find her post but it probably wouldn't be easy. Anyway, I haven't seen anyone claiming that he actually drinks very much anymore.
smcj wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:17 am From chimechofra’s post higher on the previous page, quoting Sakyong Mipham:It would seem that it is not in the distant past.Since then, I have consciously worked on improving my relationship to alcohol as well as trying to improve my general behavior and my relationship to others as a teacher and as a person. Personal development and learning is a lifelong process and I know that I must continuously apply myself and hear the feedback that I am getting. I feel tremendous regret and sadness, and I commit myself to continuing this healing.
Yes, I read that. It doesn't support the idea that he still drinks heavily.
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Well, he is welcome to say what he wants. It would not exactly be earth shattering news that 1) an alcohol problem was related to a story of abuse, or 2) that someone which such a problem hid it, or tried to hide from those closest to him.dzogchungpa wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:20 amMalcolm wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:06 amSeems pretty clear to several women in his community.dzogchungpa wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:47 pm Is it actually clear that he still has a problem with alcohol?
If you are referring to the women whose accounts appear in the report, my understanding is that the most recent one is from 2011. A woman who has apparently served as his kasung or kusung or something in recent years said on the Shambhala FB group that he no longer drank like that. I could try to find her post but it probably wouldn't be easy. Anyway, I haven't seen anyone claiming that he actually drinks very much anymore.
smcj wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:17 am From chimechofra’s post higher on the previous page, quoting Sakyong Mipham:It would seem that it is not in the distant past.Since then, I have consciously worked on improving my relationship to alcohol as well as trying to improve my general behavior and my relationship to others as a teacher and as a person. Personal development and learning is a lifelong process and I know that I must continuously apply myself and hear the feedback that I am getting. I feel tremendous regret and sadness, and I commit myself to continuing this healing.
Yes, I read that. It doesn't support the idea that he still drinks heavily.
Mind you, that does not preclude the possibility that he -has- pretty much quit drinking, I just wouldn't be that credulous about that, personally, given the abuse reports.
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Bill W’s definition of an alcoholic is someone that cannot control their drinking once they start. If SM is actually able to moderate his drinking he does not qualify as an alcoholic. If so, then good for him. Congratulations.Yes, I read that. It doesn't support the idea that he stil drinks heavily.
However if he is a bona fide alcoholic then any drinking is problematic.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:29 amWell, he is welcome to say what he wants. It would not exactly be earth shattering news that 1) an alcohol problem was related to a story of abuse, or 2) that someone which such a problem hid it, or tried to hide from those closest to him.
Mind you, that does not preclude the possibility that he -has- pretty much quit drinking, I just wouldn't be that credulous about it, personally.
Hey, not much surprises me, I just like to get the facts straight. Everyone seems to be taking it as a given that he currently has a drinking problem, so I'm trying to find out what the basis for this assumption is.
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Likely his report of past use combined with the current situation. Like I said, he could just be abusive too, but when a guy who has had trouble with alcohol in the past is the center of an abuse scandal..well, it'd almost be surprising if indeed he -had- successfully quit or significantly cut down.dzogchungpa wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:33 amJohnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:29 amWell, he is welcome to say what he wants. It would not exactly be earth shattering news that 1) an alcohol problem was related to a story of abuse, or 2) that someone which such a problem hid it, or tried to hide from those closest to him.
Mind you, that does not preclude the possibility that he -has- pretty much quit drinking, I just wouldn't be that credulous about it, personally.
Hey, not much surprises me, I just like to get the facts straight. Everyone seems to be taking it as a given that he currently has a drinking problem, so I'm trying to find out what the basis for this assumption is.
Additionally, an alcoholic does not necessarily need to be drinking heavily to have a problem, some people have major problems (e.g. abusive/dangerous/destructive behavior etc.) without drinking that much. It's the loss of control, and the use despite persistent negative consequences that defines it, not simply how much someone drinks.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:22 amLikely his report of past use combined with the current situation. Like I said, he could just be abusive too, but when a guy who has had trouble with alcohol in the past is the center of an abuse scandal..well, it'd almost be surprising if indeed he -had- successfully quit or significantly cut down.dzogchungpa wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:33 amJohnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:29 amWell, he is welcome to say what he wants. It would not exactly be earth shattering news that 1) an alcohol problem was related to a story of abuse, or 2) that someone which such a problem hid it, or tried to hide from those closest to him.
Mind you, that does not preclude the possibility that he -has- pretty much quit drinking, I just wouldn't be that credulous about it, personally.
Hey, not much surprises me, I just like to get the facts straight. Everyone seems to be taking it as a given that he currently has a drinking problem, so I'm trying to find out what the basis for this assumption is.
Additionally, an alcoholic" does not need to drink heavily to have a problem, some people have major problems (e.g. abusive/dangerous/destructive behavior etc.) without drinking that much. It's the loss of control, and the use despite persistent negative consequences that defines it, not simply how much someone drinks.
The there is the gene.
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Yeah, we can certainly assume he had it on at least one side!Malcolm wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:26 amJohnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:22 amLikely his report of past use combined with the current situation. Like I said, he could just be abusive too, but when a guy who has had trouble with alcohol in the past is the center of an abuse scandal..well, it'd almost be surprising if indeed he -had- successfully quit or significantly cut down.dzogchungpa wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:33 am
Hey, not much surprises me, I just like to get the facts straight. Everyone seems to be taking it as a given that he currently has a drinking problem, so I'm trying to find out what the basis for this assumption is.
Additionally, an alcoholic" does not need to drink heavily to have a problem, some people have major problems (e.g. abusive/dangerous/destructive behavior etc.) without drinking that much. It's the loss of control, and the use despite persistent negative consequences that defines it, not simply how much someone drinks.
The there is the gene.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:22 amLikely his report of past use combined with the current situation. Like I said, he could just be abusive too, but when a guy who has had trouble with alcohol in the past is the center of an abuse scandal..well, it'd almost be surprising if indeed he -had- successfully quit or significantly cut down.dzogchungpa wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:33 amHey, not much surprises me, I just like to get the facts straight. Everyone seems to be taking it as a given that he currently has a drinking problem, so I'm trying to find out what the basis for this assumption is.
Additionally, an alcoholic does not necessarily need to be drinking heavily to have a problem, some people have major problems (e.g. abusive/dangerous/destructive behavior etc.) without drinking that much. It's the loss of control, and the use despite persistent negative consequences that defines it, not simply how much someone drinks.
Well, what actually is the current situation? Assuming we just accept the anonymous reports as being completely truthful which, btw, I would say is somewhat credulous, is there any evidence that he still engages in such behavior?
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
ibiddzogchungpa wrote: Well, what actually is the current situation?
Assuming that he actually wrote this as a response to the current scanda, it kinda sounds like it isn't just in the past.Sakyong Mipham wrote:Since then, I have consciously worked on improving my relationship to alcohol as well as trying to improve my general behavior..............personal development and learning is a lifelong process.................... and I commit myself to continuing this healing.....
It should be noted that every alcoholic goes through a phase where he/she tries to moderate their drinking. If they are successful they aren’t alcoholic by definition. Maybe you’d call them a heavy drinker or a drunk, but not an alcoholic. If they can’t moderate their drinking then they’re a true alcoholic.
From the quote above it sounds like SM is in that process of trying to control his drinking. Only time will tell if he can do it. I wish him well in any case.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
smcj wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:46 amibiddzogchungpa wrote: Well, what actually is the current situation?Assuming that he actually wrote this as a response to the current scanda, it kinda sounds like it isn't just in the past.Sakyong Mipham wrote:Since then, I have consciously worked on improving my relationship to alcohol as well as trying to improve my general behavior..............personal development and learning is a lifelong process.................... and I commit myself to continuing this healing.....
It should be noted that every alcoholic goes through a phase where he/she tries to moderate their drinking. If they are successful they aren’t alcoholic by definition. Maybe you’d call them a heavy drinker or a drunk, but not an alcoholic. If they can’t moderate their drinking then they’re a true alcoholic.
From the quote above it sounds like SM is in that process of trying to control his drinking. Only time will tell if he can do it. I wish him well in any case.
Well, I think he is just trying to sound contrite, honestly. Anyway, after reading various posts on the FB group I don't get the impression he is still a heavy drinker but if you guys actually find out anything about it let us know.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
As a former junior administrator in this Sangha, and a victim of attempted murder in it, it is clear to me that the current situation is one of the Sakyong being unable to feel and acknowledge the current pain of his victims. To those who quote the date of the socalled last incident I ask you to consider that the incident is ongoing on account of the trauma suffered as a result of the initiating assault.
Secondly, the Sangha's Board of Directors has just initiated a socalled independent investigation by instructing a firm of local (Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada) lawyers, without any consultation with the Sangha. As the Board of Directors is implicated in covering up the sexual assaults of Mipham there immediately appears to be a conflict of interest. Add to this the fact that the Board threatened to sue to prevent reports of Mipham's sexual assaults becoming public a few weeks ago, and the fact that the Board resigned en masse days after simultaneously hiring the law firm and Harvey Weinstein's former spokesperson as a PR manager (Hilgitz) and I think it's fair to say that the victims are feeling traumatised in their past abuse even more so now than at this time last year, for instance.
SO, the abuse and its cover ups are ongoing regardless of when the initiating events took place. Mipham is therefore a charlatan in attempting to maintain his position as a teacher qualified to have his students visualise him as the buddha in their spiritual practices.
My blog is at https://shambhalacrime.wordpress.com/
Secondly, the Sangha's Board of Directors has just initiated a socalled independent investigation by instructing a firm of local (Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada) lawyers, without any consultation with the Sangha. As the Board of Directors is implicated in covering up the sexual assaults of Mipham there immediately appears to be a conflict of interest. Add to this the fact that the Board threatened to sue to prevent reports of Mipham's sexual assaults becoming public a few weeks ago, and the fact that the Board resigned en masse days after simultaneously hiring the law firm and Harvey Weinstein's former spokesperson as a PR manager (Hilgitz) and I think it's fair to say that the victims are feeling traumatised in their past abuse even more so now than at this time last year, for instance.
SO, the abuse and its cover ups are ongoing regardless of when the initiating events took place. Mipham is therefore a charlatan in attempting to maintain his position as a teacher qualified to have his students visualise him as the buddha in their spiritual practices.
My blog is at https://shambhalacrime.wordpress.com/
Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
thank you for sharing and also for all what you've done.
DCEA108 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:55 am As a former junior administrator in this Sangha, and a victim of attempted murder in it, it is clear to me that the current situation is one of the Sakyong being unable to feel and acknowledge the current pain of his victims. To those who quote the date of the socalled last incident I ask you to consider that the incident is ongoing on account of the trauma suffered as a result of the initiating assault.
Secondly, the Sangha's Board of Directors has just initiated a socalled independent investigation by instructing a firm of local (Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada) lawyers, without any consultation with the Sangha. As the Board of Directors is implicated in covering up the sexual assaults of Mipham there immediately appears to be a conflict of interest. Add to this the fact that the Board threatened to sue to prevent reports of Mipham's sexual assaults becoming public a few weeks ago, and the fact that the Board resigned en masse days after simultaneously hiring the law firm and Harvey Weinstein's former spokesperson as a PR manager (Hilgitz) and I think it's fair to say that the victims are feeling traumatised in their past abuse even more so now than at this time last year, for instance.
SO, the abuse and its cover ups are ongoing regardless of when the initiating events took place. Mipham is therefore a charlatan in attempting to maintain his position as a teacher qualified to have his students visualise him as the buddha in their spiritual practices.
My blog is at https://shambhalacrime.wordpress.com/
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Having had firsthand experience with the firm you mention in the context of the Lama Norlha scandal (An Olive Branch), I can assure you that they are the furthest thing imaginable from a coverup or conflict of interest type organization. Although they present themselves as a “third party neutral mediator”, as a layman I would characterize them more as a victim’s advocate. Presumably allowing them to clean house is in lieu of being sued into bankruptcy. Making all the leaders resign is an indication of the direction they are heading. You can read their white paper to get a sense of where they are coming from here:DCEA108 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:55 am Secondly, the Sangha's Board of Directors has just initiated a socalled independent investigation by instructing a firm of local (Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada) lawyers, without any consultation with the Sangha. As the Board of Directors is implicated in covering up the sexual assaults of Mipham there immediately appears to be a conflict of interest. Add to this the fact that the Board threatened to sue to prevent reports of Mipham's sexual assaults becoming public a few weeks ago, and the fact that the Board resigned en masse days after simultaneously hiring the law firm and Harvey Weinstein's former spokesperson as a PR manager (Hilgitz) and I think it's fair to say that the victims are feeling traumatised in their past abuse even more so now than at this time last year, for instance.
https://www.an-olive-branch.org/wp-cont ... -Power.pdf
It’s quite a read. I recommend it highly. It will be the ground rules going forward for all Dharma organizations in the US. And if you read it all the way through you’ll see that financial compensation to the victims is still included even without a lawsuit.
Last edited by Schrödinger’s Yidam on Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:17 pm, edited 7 times in total.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Are the Sakyapas the only one of the four schools who hasn't been shaken by a major controversy "recently"?
I mean CTR was tutored personally by the Karmapa and Dilgo Khenyste Rinpoche (Nyingma Head (who also tutored CTR's son and supported CTR's regent), and then the Gelugpas have Pabongka and the ghost.
Also did the Karmapa back the regent?
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
Which law firm or PR manager are you referring to? I can't seem to find anything about 'Hilgitz'.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
The law firm is “An Olive Branch”. Their white paper:dzogchungpa wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:12 pm
Which law firm or PR manager are you referring to? I can't seem to find anything about 'Hilgitz'.
https://www.an-olive-branch.org/wp-cont ... -Power.pdf
They were named earlier in this thread from this link:
https://www.lionsroar.com/shambhala-lea ... legations/
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
- dzogchungpa
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Re: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham
smcj wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:20 pmThe law firm is “An Olive Branch”. Their white paper:dzogchungpa wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:12 pm
Which law firm or PR manager are you referring to? I can't seem to find anything about 'Hilgitz'.
https://www.an-olive-branch.org/wp-cont ... -Power.pdf
They were named earlier in this thread from this link:
https://www.lionsroar.com/shambhala-lea ... legations/
That's not a law firm.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche