Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

[Quay]

The latest post from the Sakyong where he once again talks about himself in some detail is again notable for his lack of notice given to the victims in all this. Once again a non-apology influenced by our legal system, such as it is.

And for the news of a self-immolation...I can't even begin to fathom that. May their friends and family find some understanding and any available comfort in all of it. And may it never happen again because of the current causes and conditions.

[Malcolm]

Is it actually clear that he still has a problem with alcohol?

Seems pretty clear to several women in his community.

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

Is it actually clear that he still has a problem with alcohol?

From chimechofra’s post higher on the previous page, quoting Sakyong Mipham:

Since then, I have consciously worked on improving my relationship to alcohol as well as trying to improve my general behavior and my relationship to others as a teacher and as a person. Personal development and learning is a lifelong process and I know that I must continuously apply myself and hear the feedback that I am getting. I feel tremendous regret and sadness, and I commit myself to continuing this healing.

It would seem that it is not in the distant past.

[dzogchungpa]

Is it actually clear that he still has a problem with alcohol?

Seems pretty clear to several women in his community.

If you are referring to the women whose accounts appear in the report, my understanding is that the most recent one is from 2011. A woman who has apparently served as his kasung or kusung or something in recent years said on the Shambhala FB group that he no longer drank like that. I could try to find her post but it probably wouldn't be easy. Anyway, I haven't seen anyone claiming that he actually drinks very much anymore.

From chimechofra’s post higher on the previous page, quoting Sakyong Mipham:

Since then, I have consciously worked on improving my relationship to alcohol as well as trying to improve my general behavior and my relationship to others as a teacher and as a person. Personal development and learning is a lifelong process and I know that I must continuously apply myself and hear the feedback that I am getting. I feel tremendous regret and sadness, and I commit myself to continuing this healing.

It would seem that it is not in the distant past.

Yes, I read that. It doesn't support the idea that he still drinks heavily.

[Johnny Dangerous]

Is it actually clear that he still has a problem with alcohol?

Seems pretty clear to several women in his community.

If you are referring to the women whose accounts appear in the report, my understanding is that the most recent one is from 2011. A woman who has apparently served as his kasung or kusung or something in recent years said on the Shambhala FB group that he no longer drank like that. I could try to find her post but it probably wouldn't be easy. Anyway, I haven't seen anyone claiming that he actually drinks very much anymore.

From chimechofra’s post higher on the previous page, quoting Sakyong Mipham:

Since then, I have consciously worked on improving my relationship to alcohol as well as trying to improve my general behavior and my relationship to others as a teacher and as a person. Personal development and learning is a lifelong process and I know that I must continuously apply myself and hear the feedback that I am getting. I feel tremendous regret and sadness, and I commit myself to continuing this healing.

It would seem that it is not in the distant past.

Yes, I read that. It doesn't support the idea that he still drinks heavily.

Well, he is welcome to say what he wants. It would not exactly be earth shattering news that 1) an alcohol problem was related to a story of abuse, or 2) that someone which such a problem hid it, or tried to hide from those closest to him.

Mind you, that does not preclude the possibility that he -has- pretty much quit drinking, I just wouldn't be that credulous about that, personally, given the abuse reports.

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

Yes, I read that. It doesn't support the idea that he stil drinks heavily.

Bill W’s definition of an alcoholic is someone that cannot control their drinking once they start. If SM is actually able to moderate his drinking he does not qualify as an alcoholic. If so, then good for him. Congratulations.

However if he is a bona fide alcoholic then any drinking is problematic.

[dzogchungpa]

Well, he is welcome to say what he wants. It would not exactly be earth shattering news that 1) an alcohol problem was related to a story of abuse, or 2) that someone which such a problem hid it, or tried to hide from those closest to him.

Mind you, that does not preclude the possibility that he -has- pretty much quit drinking, I just wouldn't be that credulous about it, personally.

Hey, not much surprises me, I just like to get the facts straight. Everyone seems to be taking it as a given that he currently has a drinking problem, so I'm trying to find out what the basis for this assumption is.

[Johnny Dangerous]

Well, he is welcome to say what he wants. It would not exactly be earth shattering news that 1) an alcohol problem was related to a story of abuse, or 2) that someone which such a problem hid it, or tried to hide from those closest to him.

Mind you, that does not preclude the possibility that he -has- pretty much quit drinking, I just wouldn't be that credulous about it, personally.

Hey, not much surprises me, I just like to get the facts straight. Everyone seems to be taking it as a given that he currently has a drinking problem, so I'm trying to find out what the basis for this assumption is.

Likely his report of past use combined with the current situation. Like I said, he could just be abusive too, but when a guy who has had trouble with alcohol in the past is the center of an abuse scandal..well, it'd almost be surprising if indeed he -had- successfully quit or significantly cut down.

Additionally, an alcoholic does not necessarily need to be drinking heavily to have a problem, some people have major problems (e.g. abusive/dangerous/destructive behavior etc.) without drinking that much. It's the loss of control, and the use despite persistent negative consequences that defines it, not simply how much someone drinks.

[Malcolm]

Well, he is welcome to say what he wants. It would not exactly be earth shattering news that 1) an alcohol problem was related to a story of abuse, or 2) that someone which such a problem hid it, or tried to hide from those closest to him.

Mind you, that does not preclude the possibility that he -has- pretty much quit drinking, I just wouldn't be that credulous about it, personally.

Hey, not much surprises me, I just like to get the facts straight. Everyone seems to be taking it as a given that he currently has a drinking problem, so I'm trying to find out what the basis for this assumption is.

Likely his report of past use combined with the current situation. Like I said, he could just be abusive too, but when a guy who has had trouble with alcohol in the past is the center of an abuse scandal..well, it'd almost be surprising if indeed he -had- successfully quit or significantly cut down.

Additionally, an alcoholic" does not need to drink heavily to have a problem, some people have major problems (e.g. abusive/dangerous/destructive behavior etc.) without drinking that much. It's the loss of control, and the use despite persistent negative consequences that defines it, not simply how much someone drinks.

The there is the gene.

[Johnny Dangerous]

Hey, not much surprises me, I just like to get the facts straight. Everyone seems to be taking it as a given that he currently has a drinking problem, so I'm trying to find out what the basis for this assumption is.

Likely his report of past use combined with the current situation. Like I said, he could just be abusive too, but when a guy who has had trouble with alcohol in the past is the center of an abuse scandal..well, it'd almost be surprising if indeed he -had- successfully quit or significantly cut down.

Additionally, an alcoholic" does not need to drink heavily to have a problem, some people have major problems (e.g. abusive/dangerous/destructive behavior etc.) without drinking that much. It's the loss of control, and the use despite persistent negative consequences that defines it, not simply how much someone drinks.

The there is the gene.

Yeah, we can certainly assume he had it on at least one side!

[dzogchungpa]

Hey, not much surprises me, I just like to get the facts straight. Everyone seems to be taking it as a given that he currently has a drinking problem, so I'm trying to find out what the basis for this assumption is.

Likely his report of past use combined with the current situation. Like I said, he could just be abusive too, but when a guy who has had trouble with alcohol in the past is the center of an abuse scandal..well, it'd almost be surprising if indeed he -had- successfully quit or significantly cut down.

Additionally, an alcoholic does not necessarily need to be drinking heavily to have a problem, some people have major problems (e.g. abusive/dangerous/destructive behavior etc.) without drinking that much. It's the loss of control, and the use despite persistent negative consequences that defines it, not simply how much someone drinks.

Well, what actually is the current situation? Assuming we just accept the anonymous reports as being completely truthful which, btw, I would say is somewhat credulous, is there any evidence that he still engages in such behavior?

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

Well, what actually is the current situation?

ibid

Since then, I have consciously worked on improving my relationship to alcohol as well as trying to improve my general behavior..............personal development and learning is a lifelong process.................... and I commit myself to continuing this healing.....

Assuming that he actually wrote this as a response to the current scanda, it kinda sounds like it isn't just in the past.

It should be noted that every alcoholic goes through a phase where he/she tries to moderate their drinking. If they are successful they aren’t alcoholic by definition. Maybe you’d call them a heavy drinker or a drunk, but not an alcoholic. If they can’t moderate their drinking then they’re a true alcoholic.

From the quote above it sounds like SM is in that process of trying to control his drinking. Only time will tell if he can do it. I wish him well in any case.

[dzogchungpa]

Well, what actually is the current situation?

ibid

Since then, I have consciously worked on improving my relationship to alcohol as well as trying to improve my general behavior..............personal development and learning is a lifelong process.................... and I commit myself to continuing this healing.....

Assuming that he actually wrote this as a response to the current scanda, it kinda sounds like it isn't just in the past.

It should be noted that every alcoholic goes through a phase where he/she tries to moderate their drinking. If they are successful they aren’t alcoholic by definition. Maybe you’d call them a heavy drinker or a drunk, but not an alcoholic. If they can’t moderate their drinking then they’re a true alcoholic.

From the quote above it sounds like SM is in that process of trying to control his drinking. Only time will tell if he can do it. I wish him well in any case.

Well, I think he is just trying to sound contrite, honestly. Anyway, after reading various posts on the FB group I don't get the impression he is still a heavy drinker but if you guys actually find out anything about it let us know.

[DCEA108]

As a former junior administrator in this Sangha, and a victim of attempted murder in it, it is clear to me that the current situation is one of the Sakyong being unable to feel and acknowledge the current pain of his victims. To those who quote the date of the socalled last incident I ask you to consider that the incident is ongoing on account of the trauma suffered as a result of the initiating assault.

Secondly, the Sangha's Board of Directors has just initiated a socalled independent investigation by instructing a firm of local (Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada) lawyers, without any consultation with the Sangha. As the Board of Directors is implicated in covering up the sexual assaults of Mipham there immediately appears to be a conflict of interest. Add to this the fact that the Board threatened to sue to prevent reports of Mipham's sexual assaults becoming public a few weeks ago, and the fact that the Board resigned en masse days after simultaneously hiring the law firm and Harvey Weinstein's former spokesperson as a PR manager (Hilgitz) and I think it's fair to say that the victims are feeling traumatised in their past abuse even more so now than at this time last year, for instance.

SO, the abuse and its cover ups are ongoing regardless of when the initiating events took place. Mipham is therefore a charlatan in attempting to maintain his position as a teacher qualified to have his students visualise him as the buddha in their spiritual practices.

My blog is at https://shambhalacrime.wordpress.com/

[gb9810]

thank you for sharing and also for all what you've done.

As a former junior administrator in this Sangha, and a victim of attempted murder in it, it is clear to me that the current situation is one of the Sakyong being unable to feel and acknowledge the current pain of his victims. To those who quote the date of the socalled last incident I ask you to consider that the incident is ongoing on account of the trauma suffered as a result of the initiating assault.

Secondly, the Sangha's Board of Directors has just initiated a socalled independent investigation by instructing a firm of local (Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada) lawyers, without any consultation with the Sangha. As the Board of Directors is implicated in covering up the sexual assaults of Mipham there immediately appears to be a conflict of interest. Add to this the fact that the Board threatened to sue to prevent reports of Mipham's sexual assaults becoming public a few weeks ago, and the fact that the Board resigned en masse days after simultaneously hiring the law firm and Harvey Weinstein's former spokesperson as a PR manager (Hilgitz) and I think it's fair to say that the victims are feeling traumatised in their past abuse even more so now than at this time last year, for instance.

SO, the abuse and its cover ups are ongoing regardless of when the initiating events took place. Mipham is therefore a charlatan in attempting to maintain his position as a teacher qualified to have his students visualise him as the buddha in their spiritual practices.

My blog is at https://shambhalacrime.wordpress.com/

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

Secondly, the Sangha's Board of Directors has just initiated a socalled independent investigation by instructing a firm of local (Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada) lawyers, without any consultation with the Sangha. As the Board of Directors is implicated in covering up the sexual assaults of Mipham there immediately appears to be a conflict of interest. Add to this the fact that the Board threatened to sue to prevent reports of Mipham's sexual assaults becoming public a few weeks ago, and the fact that the Board resigned en masse days after simultaneously hiring the law firm and Harvey Weinstein's former spokesperson as a PR manager (Hilgitz) and I think it's fair to say that the victims are feeling traumatised in their past abuse even more so now than at this time last year, for instance.

Having had firsthand experience with the firm you mention in the context of the Lama Norlha scandal (An Olive Branch), I can assure you that they are the furthest thing imaginable from a coverup or conflict of interest type organization. Although they present themselves as a “third party neutral mediator”, as a layman I would characterize them more as a victim’s advocate. Presumably allowing them to clean house is in lieu of being sued into bankruptcy. Making all the leaders resign is an indication of the direction they are heading. You can read their white paper to get a sense of where they are coming from here:

https://www.an-olive-branch.org/wp-cont ... -Power.pdf

It’s quite a read. I recommend it highly. It will be the ground rules going forward for all Dharma organizations in the US. And if you read it all the way through you’ll see that financial compensation to the victims is still included even without a lawsuit.

[Motova]

Are the Sakyapas the only one of the four schools who hasn't been shaken by a major controversy "recently"?

I mean CTR was tutored personally by the Karmapa and Dilgo Khenyste Rinpoche (Nyingma Head (who also tutored CTR's son and supported CTR's regent), and then the Gelugpas have Pabongka and the ghost.

Also did the Karmapa back the regent?

[dzogchungpa]

... hiring the law firm and Harvey Weinstein's former spokesperson as a PR manager (Hilgitz) ...

Which law firm or PR manager are you referring to? I can't seem to find anything about 'Hilgitz'.

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

... hiring the law firm and Harvey Weinstein's former spokesperson as a PR manager (Hilgitz) ...

Which law firm or PR manager are you referring to? I can't seem to find anything about 'Hilgitz'.

The law firm is “An Olive Branch”. Their white paper:
https://www.an-olive-branch.org/wp-cont ... -Power.pdf

They were named earlier in this thread from this link:

https://www.lionsroar.com/shambhala-lea ... legations/

[dzogchungpa]

... hiring the law firm and Harvey Weinstein's former spokesperson as a PR manager (Hilgitz) ...

Which law firm or PR manager are you referring to? I can't seem to find anything about 'Hilgitz'.

The law firm is “An Olive Branch”. Their white paper:
https://www.an-olive-branch.org/wp-cont ... -Power.pdf

They were named earlier in this thread from this link:

https://www.lionsroar.com/shambhala-lea ... legations/

That's not a law firm.