Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo & Lama Tsultrim Allione: Shambhala's Sakyong Mipham

[Natan]

Ok. Also keep in mind mantrins who hold samaya. Disparagers become the object of ritual slaying.

Better make sure you can stab your wooden kīla into a rock before you attempt such feats. Otherwise, you just harm yourself.

BTW, at Lamdre, recently, His Holiness Sakya Trizen 42 made it quite clear that the guru/disciple relationship was not one of total, slavish obedience. That if one's guru asked one to do things that contradicted the Dharma, one should disobey.

I agree w HHST

[Malcolm]

Ok. Also keep in mind mantrins who hold samaya. Disparagers become the object of ritual slaying.

Better make sure you can stab your wooden kīla into a rock before you attempt such feats. Otherwise, you just harm yourself.

BTW, at Lamdre, recently, His Holiness Sakya Trizen 42 made it quite clear that the guru/disciple relationship was not one of total, slavish obedience. That if one's guru asked one to do things that contradicted the Dharma, one should disobey.

I agree w HHST

Glad we cleared that up.

[Natan]

Better make sure you can stab your wooden kīla into a rock before you attempt such feats. Otherwise, you just harm yourself.

BTW, at Lamdre, recently, His Holiness Sakya Trizen 42 made it quite clear that the guru/disciple relationship was not one of total, slavish obedience. That if one's guru asked one to do things that contradicted the Dharma, one should disobey.

I agree w HHST

Glad we cleared that up.

I’m saying there’s too much finger pointing going on here. It’s enough to make this point. After a while the scale tips towards disparaging samaya holders.

[Malcolm]

I agree w HHST

Glad we cleared that up.

I’m saying there’s too much finger pointing going on here. It’s enough to make this point. After a while the scale tips towards disparaging samaya holders.

No, there is no finger pointing -- there is mere acknowledgement that we have a religious tradition which is in deep denial about harmful abuses which it allows to happen to children, women, and others.

[Natan]

Glad we cleared that up.

I’m saying there’s too much finger pointing going on here. It’s enough to make this point. After a while the scale tips towards disparaging samaya holders.

No, there is no finger pointing -- there is mere acknowledgement that we have a religious tradition which is in deep denial about harmful abuses which it allows to happen to children, women, and others.

Do what to remedy?

[Virgo]

Do what to remedy?

I believe it starts with having this convo.

Kevin...

[Simon E.]

I dont think there is any great mystery here.
Ok some like the idea of being Indian Jones battling through the Himalayan snows and finding the Guru who puts them through enormous Herculean tasks from which they emerge serene and wise, flinging phurbas and shattering rock with mantras.

The reality for the overwhelming majority is quite different (thank goodness).
My friend B for example had spent time at Samye-Ling, and at Gampo Abbey.
She had put her all into her practice. And was exhausted depressed and was losing her faith in the Dharma.

She turned to Lama Ato who invited her to his home. He and his wife made her welcome and gave her the space to come to terms with the way her life was going. They supported her and listened and listened.

She left three days later restored physically and mentally, and reapplied herself to her ngondro practice and recommenced her daily practices generally. When I saw her she looked like a different person. Ten years younger. I asked her what made the difference. 'The kindness of Rinpoche and his wife' she said . 'Their huge compassion and kindness'.

[yan kong]

I dont think there is any great mystery here.
Ok some like the idea of being Indian Jones battling through the Himalayan snows and finding the Guru who puts them through enormous Herculean tasks from which they emerge serene and wise, flinging phurbas and shattering rock with mantras.

The reality for the overwhelming majority is quite different (thank goodness).
My friend B for example had spent time at Samye-Ling, and at Gampo Abbey.
She had put her all into her practice. And was exhausted depressed and was losing her faith in the Dharma.

She turned to Lama Ato who invited her to his home. He and his wife made her welcome and gave her the space to come to terms with the way her life was going. They supported her and listened and listened.

She left three days later restored physically and mentally, and reapplied herself to her ngondro practice and recommenced her daily practices generally. When I saw her she looked like a different person. Ten years younger. I asked her what made the difference. 'The kindness of Rinpoche and his wife' she said . 'Their huge compassion and kindness'.

That's a great story!

[Malcolm]

I’m saying there’s too much finger pointing going on here. It’s enough to make this point. After a while the scale tips towards disparaging samaya holders.

No, there is no finger pointing -- there is mere acknowledgement that we have a religious tradition which is in deep denial about harmful abuses which it allows to happen to children, women, and others.

Do what to remedy?

Lets start by not pretending that everything advanced in the name of Vajrayāna actually corresponds with Vajrayāna Dharma on any level. Lets also stop pretending, in the name of "samaya," that bestowing empowerments is a free pass to abuse students, sexually, financially, and emotionally.

[Natan]

No, there is no finger pointing -- there is mere acknowledgement that we have a religious tradition which is in deep denial about harmful abuses which it allows to happen to children, women, and others.

Do what to remedy?

Lets start by not pretending that everything advanced in the name of Vajrayāna actually corresponds with Vajrayāna Dharma on any level. Lets also stop pretending, in the name of "samaya," that bestowing empowerments is a free pass to abuse students, sexually, financially, and emotionally.

Caveat emptor.

[Malcolm]

Do what to remedy?

Lets start by not pretending that everything advanced in the name of Vajrayāna actually corresponds with Vajrayāna Dharma on any level. Lets also stop pretending, in the name of "samaya," that bestowing empowerments is a free pass to abuse students, sexually, financially, and emotionally.

Caveat emptor.

Apparently, we need lemon laws. Anyway, empowerments granted by gurus with no realization have no force anyway.

[Virgo]

Apparently, we need lemon laws.

Yes, when they give faulty teachings that don't work, we get to lock them up in a stockade and throw lemons and other fruits at them.

Kevin...

[PSM]

I've almost finished watching the brilliant Wild Wild Country. I can't help but think it's highly relevant to this thread.

[heart]

I've almost finished watching the brilliant Wild Wild Country. I can't help but think it's highly relevant to this thread.

Yes, I agree.

/magnus

[Virgo]

I've almost finished watching the brilliant Wild Wild Country. I can't help but think it's highly relevant to this thread.

Kevin

[Dorje Shedrub]

I dont think there is any great mystery here.
Ok some like the idea of being Indian Jones battling through the Himalayan snows and finding the Guru who puts them through enormous Herculean tasks from which they emerge serene and wise, flinging phurbas and shattering rock with mantras.

The reality for the overwhelming majority is quite different (thank goodness).
My friend B for example had spent time at Samye-Ling, and at Gampo Abbey.
She had put her all into her practice. And was exhausted depressed and was losing her faith in the Dharma.

She turned to Lama Ato who invited her to his home. He and his wife made her welcome and gave her the space to come to terms with the way her life was going. They supported her and listened and listened.

She left three days later restored physically and mentally, and reapplied herself to her ngondro practice and recommenced her daily practices generally. When I saw her she looked like a different person. Ten years younger. I asked her what made the difference. 'The kindness of Rinpoche and his wife' she said . 'Their huge compassion and kindness'.

Was her bad experience at Gampo Abbey due to the Sakyong or other things? Does he have much to do with the abbey or is it more Pema Chodron?

DS

[Simon E.]

Nothing to do with Mukpo. Or Pema Chodren.
I was just making the point that my friend was burned out.
It happens.
And what restored her was not eating shit or being branded or sexually exploited. None of those things happened.
What restored her to being a functioning and dedicated Dharma student was kindness and compassion.

'Crazy wisdom' is a gyp. A western fantasy. A projection. Wishful thinking.

[PSM]

What restored her to being a functioning and dedicated Dharma student was kindness and compassion.

'Crazy wisdom' is a gyp. A western fantasy. A projection. Wishful thinking.

[Lingpupa]

She turned to Lama Ato who invited her to his home. He and his wife made her welcome and gave her the space to come to terms with the way her life was going. They supported her and listened and listened.

She left three days later restored physically and mentally, and reapplied herself to her ngondro practice and recommenced her daily practices generally. When I saw her she looked like a different person. Ten years younger. I asked her what made the difference. 'The kindness of Rinpoche and his wife' she said . 'Their huge compassion and kindness'.

Ato Rinpoche. One of my heavy guys. I am lucky.

[Simon E.]

He's a treasure.