Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:

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Tenma
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Wienstein:

Post by Tenma »

Snowbear wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:56 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:53 pm
Snowbear wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:52 pm

It is, in HYT.
In what tantra does it instruct students to willingly submit to sexual abuse?
I don't think the tantras recognized "sexual abuse." but sexual acts with women are in there.
I thought they were symbolic? Not literal?
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Aryjna
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Wienstein:

Post by Aryjna »

Snowbear wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:00 pm
Josef wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:59 pm Wow, you really think he was oblivious to the suffering he was inflicting at the time?
Yes. It's called the Illusion of transparency.
You are missing the point. Which is that someone who acts this way is not a qualified teacher, but a deluded ordinary being creating horrifying karma for himself. Of course there is some explanation of why he acted this way, but it does not allow for the possibility that he has any sort of realization or ability to teach others.
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Wienstein:

Post by Snowbear »

Aryjna wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:05 pm
Snowbear wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:00 pm
Josef wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:59 pm Wow, you really think he was oblivious to the suffering he was inflicting at the time?
Yes. It's called the Illusion of transparency.
You are missing the point. Which is that someone who acts this way is not a qualified teacher, but a deluded ordinary being creating horrifying karma for himself. Of course there is some explanation of why he acted this way, but it does not allow for the possibility that he has any sort of realization or ability to teach others.
I'm sure he can teach fine. Everyone is a human being with faults.
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dzogchungpa
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Wienstein:

Post by dzogchungpa »

Snowbear wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:56 pmI didn't read the whole report, but did any woman actually confront him with how she felt about it all?

I'm just starting to look through it, but in the first anonymous story and impact statement the woman writes:
Finally, however, common sense and the reality of how ashamed, anguished, and bewildered I felt prompted me to speak out. I could no longer rationalize what was happening. After one particularly egregious night, I spoke my mind. I told him, after he’d recovered from his hangover three days later, that if he thought I was waiting around for him to ask me to marry him, he could think again. I told him that I’d seen how he treated women and I wanted no part of it. Years of frustration and wondering what he wanted from me bubbled up. As I spoke, SMR sat with a stunned look on his face and for some time said nothing. When he finally did speak, he said that he was sorry, that he had not meant to hurt me.
Last edited by dzogchungpa on Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Wienstein:

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Snowbear wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:08 pm
Aryjna wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:07 pm
Snowbear wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:07 pm

I'm sure he can teach fine. Everyone is a human being with faults.
You are sure of that because you have not bothered to read even a paragraph of the relevant teachings.
Sexual acts are fine for HYT practitioners.
Following a teacher that is not capable of following moral code and vows and not abuse women is like drinking a poison. There is no other way. Sorry. Morality is one of the main ways how to recognize a good practitioner and a good teacher to follow.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

Formerly known as Miroku.
Snowbear
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Wienstein:

Post by Snowbear »

Aryjna wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:09 pm
Snowbear wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:08 pm
Aryjna wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:07 pm

You are sure of that because you have not bothered to read even a paragraph of the relevant teachings.
Sexual acts are fine for HYT practitioners.
Ok, good luck. Maybe you should consider teaching as well.
I think the best solution is for women to keep opening up about it until these Lamas realize that what they are doing is not OK.
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Wienstein:

Post by Snowbear »

dzogchungpa wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:10 pm
Snowbear wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:56 pmI didn't read the whole report, but did any woman actually confront him with how she felt about it all?

I'm just starting to look through it, but in the first anonymous story and impact statement the woman writes:
Finally, however, common sense and the reality of how ashamed, anguished, and bewildered I felt prompted me to speak out. I could no longer rationalize what was happening. After one particularly egregious night, I spoke my mind. I told him, after he’d recovered from his hangover three days later, that if he thought I was waiting around for him to ask me to marry him, he could think again. I told him that I’d seen how he treated women and I wanted no part of it. Years of frustration and wondering what he wanted from me bubbled up. As I spoke, SMR sat with a stunned look on his face and for some time said nothing. When he finally did speak, he said that he was sorry, that he had not meant to hurt me.
Exactly. Thank you.
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Wienstein:

Post by Snowbear »

Once again, for the record.

The Illusion of Transparency: Why You Are Not As Obvious As You Think You Are
The illusion of transparency is our tendency to overestimate how well other people can discern our emotional state. This cognitive bias is attributed to our inability to properly adjust from the anchor of our own point of view when attempting to see ourselves from another person’s perspective. Basically, since our own emotional state is generally clear to us, it’s difficult for us to internalize the fact that it’s not as clear to others.

In the following article, you will learn more about the illusion of transparency, and about how accounting for it can help you become more confident and better at communicating with others.
Simon E.
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Wienstein:

Post by Simon E. »

Josef wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:59 pm
Snowbear wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:53 pm
Josef wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:50 pm

Again, you’re suggesting that he’s an idiot.
No, because (1) he doesn't read minds. Those women were suffering for sure, but we now know because they aired it out later. (2) sex with women is fine in the tantras, and I suspect no one taught him how to properly deal with sexual desires, women, etc. in the context of sexual practice.
Wow, you really think he was oblivious to the suffering he was inflicting at the time?
That confirms that you 1, think he’s an idiot and 2, suggests that you think he may be a sociopath (which I don’t necessarily disagree with).
Maybe neither Josef. I think perhaps he has been raised in an environment where he feels entitled rather like a Trump offspring..but instead of money its sexual license.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Wienstein:

Post by Snowbear »

Simon E. wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:18 pm
Josef wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:59 pm
Snowbear wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:53 pm

No, because (1) he doesn't read minds. Those women were suffering for sure, but we now know because they aired it out later. (2) sex with women is fine in the tantras, and I suspect no one taught him how to properly deal with sexual desires, women, etc. in the context of sexual practice.
Wow, you really think he was oblivious to the suffering he was inflicting at the time?
That confirms that you 1, think he’s an idiot and 2, suggests that you think he may be a sociopath (which I don’t necessarily disagree with).
Maybe neither Josef. I think perhaps he has been raised in an environment where he feels entitled rather like a Trump offspring..but instead of money its sexual license.
Probably. Ideally it should have been addressed earlier in his life.
Terma
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Wienstein:

Post by Terma »

Jangchup Donden wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:42 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:15 pm
Snowbear wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:07 pm

What do they say "sexual misconduct" is?
For a vajrayana practioners, sleeping with ordinary partners who have not been ripened by empowerment is sexual musconduct, beyond that, the standard definitions apply. For example, the rape allegation against Mipham would be covered under this.
Just a clarification on this -- so if you're a Vajrayana practicioner and are married to a non-Buddhist wife/husband, then having sex with them would be sexual misconduct?
I am also curious on this one. Good question.
Simon E.
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Wienstein:

Post by Simon E. »

He has been raised in the Mukpo clan..with all that implies in terms of perceived entitlement. Its a family firm which is loosely based on selling Dharma flavoured snack food.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Motova
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Wienstein:

Post by Motova »

Terma wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:32 pm
Jangchup Donden wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:42 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:15 pm

For a vajrayana practioners, sleeping with ordinary partners who have not been ripened by empowerment is sexual musconduct, beyond that, the standard definitions apply. For example, the rape allegation against Mipham would be covered under this.
Just a clarification on this -- so if you're a Vajrayana practicioner and are married to a non-Buddhist wife/husband, then having sex with them would be sexual misconduct?
I am also curious on this one. Good question.
I don't speak for Malcolm, but I remember this being discussed on VC....

I may be remembering wrong... but I think this might be in the context of a practitioner trying to do a HYT practice with someone who has not been ripened by empowerment during sex. If you have sex with a non-HYT practitioner, then you just have sex as a non-HYT practitioner would. However, ideally we should try to connect with someone who shares our empowerments....
Last edited by Motova on Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Malcolm
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Wienstein:

Post by Malcolm »

Snowbear wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:32 pm
Pema Karpo cites the following lines of the Subahu Tantra concerning unworthy
actions:
A mantrin should always shun
Offensive speech, slander,
Sexual relations with married women,
Just "married women" here.
...(3) Not to engage in adultery means to abstain from sexual relations
with an inappropriate partner, such as another’s spouse,
whether or not one has taken the vow of celibacy;
Again.
...(2) Not to engage in sexual union with the consort of one’s
master;
Again. They all seem to be saying "untaken" women is fine.

With respect to the root downfall, to use an unripened women or man for actual karmamudra practice is a root downfall, covered in the seventh root downfall, declaring secrets. Then of course there is the fourteenth root downfall, denigrating women, who are the nature of wisdom. Treating women poorly, not displaying loving kindness towards them, etc., is not only a breaking the fourteenth root downfall, but also the fourth, not to abandon love for sentient beings.

With respect to the branch downfalls, the first branch downfall is having sexual intercourse with a women or man who does not possess samaya, that is, someone who is unripened by empowerment, or someone who has broken their samaya.

Actually, engaging in conduct that contradicts the Buddha's teachings is itself a root downfall, the second.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
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Simon E.
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Wienstein:

Post by Simon E. »

No, Tibetans need to see what will or will not fly in the west. For everyone's sake.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Simon E.
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Wienstein:

Post by Simon E. »

No comparison.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Malcolm
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Wienstein:

Post by Malcolm »

Simon E. wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:33 pm He has been raised in the Mukpo clan..with all that implies in terms of perceived entitlement. Its a family firm which is loosely based on selling Dharma flavoured snack food.
Tibetans clans are not like Scottish clans with a laird, etc., though CTR appropriated the latter.

The Mukpo tribe, located in Kham, is part of the a larger tribe, the sDong.

Of course, the founder of the Khon clan, Namlha Yuring, tamed all the eighteen branches of the sDong, and made them vassals. This is why the Khon are really the bosses of all sDong, including the Mukpos. :twisted:

With respect to the Mukpo tribe, all this business about CTR being head of this tribe is nonsense.

Of course, there is a saying about the Mukpos:

"The descendants of the Mugpo Dong race think only of conquering other peoples."
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
Malcolm
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Wienstein:

Post by Malcolm »

Snowbear wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:45 pm
All of us in this thread know what denigrating women means. However, we need to understand what that meant traditionally for Tibetans.
The tantras and commentaries are really quite clear on this point.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
Simon E.
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Wienstein:

Post by Simon E. »

I meant Malcolm, that part of the 'clan' which is Mukpo Inc. USA.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Malcolm
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Re: Mipham Rinpoche channels Wienstein:

Post by Malcolm »

Simon E. wrote: Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:13 pm I meant Malcolm, that part of the 'clan' which is Mukpo Inc. USA.
There is actually so much bullshit mythology in Shambhala Inc., it would take teams of scholars to unravel it all.
Last edited by Malcolm on Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
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