Mipham Rinpoche channels Weinstein:

[anjali]

Time for a break and some cleanup.

Ok. The thread has been cleaned up yet again. So...if this blows up one more time, it gets locked and stays locked.

[Malcolm]

There is this conclusion, which I agree with:

In addition to questioning the Sakyong, there are kusung and other leaders who have been specifically named by women as allegedly participating in or condoning this conduct. KC members, current kusung and several kusung no longer in the community should be interviewed for their knowledge of this allegation. If true, this points to a remarkably predatory, institutionalized abuse of women that should not be tolerated in any organization, no less one with spiritual goals.

And it is true.

Additionally, Osel Mukpo really ought to seek professional help for his very evident alcoholism.

During the time I spent in Dharmadhatu communities in the late '80's and early 90's, I witnessed an amazing amount of alcoholism in the Dharmadhatu culture. I have observed the same behavior in other communities, mostly Nyimgma, including Dzogchen Community (though here it is actively discouraged by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu). Alcoholism is a fairly widespread problem in Tibetan Buddhism, at least in the Nyingma tradition, and it leads to many of the problems we see here. I know of at least three Tibetan Buddhist teachers who have died due to problems related to drinking, including CTR. It is time we acknowledge that in some Tibetan Buddhist communities there is a very unhealthy relationship with alcohol. There are at least three translators that I know who are chronic alcoholics.

All in all it is a serious issue.

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

Maybe these guys should just use the internet for hookups. I hear that’s how it is done now.

[Virgo]

There is this conclusion, which I agree with:

In addition to questioning the Sakyong, there are kusung and other leaders who have been specifically named by women as allegedly participating in or condoning this conduct. KC members, current kusung and several kusung no longer in the community should be interviewed for their knowledge of this allegation. If true, this points to a remarkably predatory, institutionalized abuse of women that should not be tolerated in any organization, no less one with spiritual goals.

And it is true.

Additionally, Osel Mukpo really ought to seek professional help for his very evident alcoholism.

During the time I spent in Dharmadhatu communities in the late '80's and early 90's, I witnessed an amazing amount of alcoholism in the Dharmadhatu culture. I have observed the same behavior in other communities, mostly Nyimgma, including Dzogchen Community (though here it is actively discouraged by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu). Alcoholism is a fairly widespread problem in Tibetan Buddhism, at least in the Nyingma tradition, and it leads to many of the problems we see here. I know of at least three Tibetan Buddhist teachers who have died due to problems related to drinking, including CTR. It is time we acknowledge that in some Tibetan Buddhist communities there is a very unhealthy relationship with alcohol. There are at least three translators that I know who are chronic alcoholics.

All in all it is a serious issue.

Yes, and in the pdf it was said he was often shitfaced (my term) when groping, raping, and abusing women.

Kevin...

[Virgo]

Maybe these guys should just use the internet for hookups. I hear that’s how it is done now.

I could see some of them trying to hook up with women half their age on Tinder, etc.

A lot of practitioners too.

Kevin...

[dzogchungpa]

Yes, and in the pdf it was said he was often shitfaced (my term) when groping, raping, and abusing women.

Really? Where does it say that he was drunk while raping someone? I still haven't really read it but I don't see anything like that.

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

Maybe these guys should just use the internet for hookups. I hear that’s how it is done now.

I could see some of them trying to hook up with women half their age on Tinder, etc.

A lot of practitioners too.

Kevin...

If it’s mutually consensual I don’t see that as a problem. The problem comes when a position of trust is betrayed for personal gratification. That kind of trust is sacred. With internet hookups that entire issue is absent. Now if somebody is trying to pose as a celibate renunciate there’s the issue of being a fraud. But that’s small potatoes.

[sillyrabbit]

With respect to the branch downfalls, the first branch downfall is having sexual intercourse with a women or man who does not possess samaya, that is, someone who is unripened by empowerment, or someone who has broken their samaya.

All the sources I can find connect this downfall to activities related to a certain practice, not in general. Is this your way of saying that the certain practice should be constant or is it really this confusing...?

[Virgo]

If it’s mutually consensual I don’t see that as a problem. The problem comes when a position of trust is betrayed for personal gratification.

Absolutely.

Kevin...

[Quay]

...During the time I spent in Dharmadhatu communities in the late '80's and early 90's, I witnessed an amazing amount of alcoholism in the Dharmadhatu culture. I have observed the same behavior in other communities, mostly Nyimgma, including Dzogchen Community (though here it is actively discouraged by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu). Alcoholism is a fairly widespread problem in Tibetan Buddhism, at least in the Nyingma tradition, and it leads to many of the problems we see here. I know of at least three Tibetan Buddhist teachers who have died due to problems related to drinking, including CTR. It is time we acknowledge that in some Tibetan Buddhist communities there is a very unhealthy relationship with alcohol. There are at least three translators that I know who are chronic alcoholics.

All in all it is a serious issue.

It certainly is. I'm fortunate in that the Nyingma lamas I have received teachings from do not seem to have any problems with alcohol but I did notice problems with some family members close to them and have heard much sangha gossip about such things in the wider community. This all seems to be part of what I've called cultural turbulence with the Dharma and its holders coming to the west.

Reminds me of someone explaining how it becomes such a big problem so quickly: "In Tibet making chang took a while and there wasn't often an excess of it except at certain times of the year. But I've seen more than one newly arrived Tibetan in Costco marveling at the stacks of pallets of gallon-bottles of whiskey and notice how they fill their cart up with it all."

In terms of the thread, I can't quite imagine what kid of distraction/temptation the super-abundance of alcohol in this country must be to those newly arrived & how that would certainly also increase sexual problems but it definitely seems to have badly effected more than one Tibetan Buddhist teacher.

[Virgo]

In terms of the thread, I can't quite imagine what kid of distraction/temptation the super-abundance of alcohol in this country must be to those newly arrived but it definitely seems to have badly effected more than one Tibetan Buddhist teacher.

Any individual can fall prone to alcoholism. It is about personal responsibility. Just like not putting your dirty hands (or anything else) where they shouldn't be, on people they shouldn't be on, etc.

People have to be healthy in body and mind if they want to practice.

May it be so, and may all our problems in Dharma communities dissolve. May Sakyong Rinpoche be happy, healthy, realize what he has done wrong, make amends, not repeat it, and attain Buddhahood quickly.

Kevin...

[Malcolm]

With respect to the branch downfalls, the first branch downfall is having sexual intercourse with a women or man who does not possess samaya, that is, someone who is unripened by empowerment, or someone who has broken their samaya.

All the sources I can find connect this downfall to activities related to a certain practice, not in general. Is this your way of saying that the certain practice should be constant or is it really this confusing...?

It is not confusing at all. The first branch samaya could not be more clear. This is why I made the distinction that I did -- relying on an unripened partners for karmamudra practice, which has certain procedures, is a root downfall. Relying on a women or a man as a sexual partner who has not been ripened is a branch downfall.

[Virgo]

Even just getting feelings (if they are strong) for a non-practitioner causes a problem in my opinion. Clearly sexual intercourse breaks the samaya.

Edit: not sexual feelings but emotional feelings.

Kevin...

[PeterC]

I've never quite understood what it is they actually practice in Shambhala. The only people associated with CTR I've come across were his older students, who went through a pretty traditional curriculum at that time. Reading through this document there are references to all sorts of things that don't seem connected to any other system of tantra (the "scorpion seal", "warrior assembly", etc.). Is what they do comparable to other systems - preliminaries, three roots, whatever - or is it completely different?

My understanding is that CTR himself didn't practice his own termas, but transmitted them to Dilgo Khyentse R. who then trained Osel Mukpo* in them - is that correct? Not raising questions here on validity of their teachings - just curious as to what they actually are.


*Using his given name, as I neither want to associate him with Jamgon Mipham nor use his self-assumed title of "earth king".

[Virgo]

I've never quite understood what it is they actually practice in Shambhala. The only people associated with CTR I've come across were his older students, who went through a pretty traditional curriculum at that time. Reading through this document there are references to all sorts of things that don't seem connected to any other system of tantra (the "scorpion seal", "warrior assembly", etc.). Is what they do comparable to other systems - preliminaries, three roots, whatever - or is it completely different?

My understanding is that CTR himself didn't practice his own termas, but transmitted them to Dilgo Khyentse R. who then trained Osel Mukpo* in them - is that correct? Not raising questions here on validity of their teachings - just curious as to what they actually are.


*Using his given name, as I neither want to associate him with Jamgon Mipham nor use his self-assumed title of "earth king".

I'd like to know too Peter. Years ago I did read 3 or 4 of the Shambhala books and investigated it a little bit, but i don't remember all the details. It is based on the idea of some kind of peaceful warrior kingdom though...

Kevin...

[dzogchungpa]

*Using his given name, as I neither want to associate him with Jamgon Mipham nor use his self-assumed title of "earth king".

Actually, CTR set up a whole bunch of different roles with titles for the Kingdom of Shambhala or whatever it is called. Sakyong is one of them, and CTR was the first one. SMR held the position of Sawang while CTR was alive, and apparently SMR was enthroned as the Sakyong by Penor Rinpoche. You can read about it in Hayward's "Warrior-King of Shambhala".

[PeterC]

*Using his given name, as I neither want to associate him with Jamgon Mipham nor use his self-assumed title of "earth king".

Actually, CTR set up a whole bunch of different roles with titles for the Kingdom of Shambhala or whatever it is called. Sakyong is one of them, and CTR was the first one. SMR held the position of Sawang while CTR was alive, and apparently SMR was enthroned as the Sakyong by Penor Rinpoche. You can read about it in Hayward's "Warrior-King of Shambhala".

Thanks - will read. What was CT's basis for setting himself up in these roles (as opposed to anyone else)? Did he claim some special authority from the Kalachakra?

[dzogchungpa]

Thanks - will read. What was CT's basis for setting himself up in these roles (as opposed to anyone else)? Did he claim some special authority from the Kalachakra?

I'm not really remembering right now, perhaps someone else knows. I will have a look around later and get back to you. It's definitely connected with some of his termas.

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

Using his given name, as I neither want to associate him with Jamgon Mipham nor use his self-assumed title of "earth king".

I’d like to suggest the thread be re-titled to make it clear who is the subject. I was confused for a bit.

[jet.urgyen]

If it’s mutually consensual I don’t see that as a problem. The problem comes when a position of trust is betrayed for personal gratification.

Absolutely.

Kevin...

i'm afraid this is not quite right. you see, if one considers oneself to be a practitioner (not to say a Lama), then one must observe the causes and the consequences because that is what we buddhists do, even if "our realization is higher than the sky".

A quick consentment based on passion in a vertical relation situation, such as Lama-student relation, is not valid at all.

a student is not in his/her 6 senses while answering his/her Lama's demands, one almost only say "yes" due to "devotion".
Knowing this, a Lama should not do demands that undermines the dignity of his/her student.

this is not still about samaya, or commitments, etc., because the more i learn about vajrayana the more ignorant i know i'm, and i'm not learned.
so, in short, is about being buddhist, having compassion and common sense.

now, ¿aren't firmly-based-communities suposed to enable Boddhisatva's births?

this one is just a priviledged and blessed man: he has beng blessed with transmissions, he has empowerments, he has authority, he has a community, he has youth, he has a family name, power, money, etc. has all the "means-to", but doesn't observe karma nor have compassion.

¿what can one make of this? i will just stay away and do not consider him an authority on buddhadharma because to me this kind of man turns the wheel of lies and deception. Sadly is not the first i have spot.

i hope realy not have being rude, i just wrote this as calm as one takes a cup of tea.