Did the 84 mahasiddhas authorize others to teach?

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fckw
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas authorize others to teach?

Post by fckw »

Very interesting: So far nobody presented a strong case why teaching authorisation was part of the lineage system in the early days of Vajrayana. This settles an uncertainty I had on this topic for quite some time in a, for me, surprising way.
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ratna
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas authorize others to teach?

Post by ratna »

fckw wrote: Sun May 13, 2018 7:21 am Very interesting: So far nobody presented a strong case why teaching authorisation was part of the lineage system in the early days of Vajrayana. This settles an uncertainty I had on this topic for quite some time in a, for me, surprising way.
Well, there is a formal way of authorization to teach that comes from the Tantras themselves -- it's called the vajra master empowerment.

R
fckw
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas authorize others to teach?

Post by fckw »

ratna wrote: Sun May 13, 2018 10:52 am
fckw wrote: Sun May 13, 2018 7:21 am Very interesting: So far nobody presented a strong case why teaching authorisation was part of the lineage system in the early days of Vajrayana. This settles an uncertainty I had on this topic for quite some time in a, for me, surprising way.
Well, there is a formal way of authorization to teach that comes from the Tantras themselves -- it's called the vajra master empowerment.

R
That's interesting, can you say more about it?
Varis
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas authorize others to teach?

Post by Varis »

heart wrote: Sat May 12, 2018 7:20 pm Read any book on the 84 mahasiddhas. A few of them where not Buddhists but attained the same level of realisation.

/magnus
I don't recall any of their stories saying that they attained the Bhumis like the Buddhist ones did. Can you give me a source?
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Aryjna
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas authorize others to teach?

Post by Aryjna »

Varis wrote: Sun May 13, 2018 1:11 pm
heart wrote: Sat May 12, 2018 7:20 pm Read any book on the 84 mahasiddhas. A few of them where not Buddhists but attained the same level of realisation.

/magnus
I don't recall any of their stories saying that they attained the Bhumis like the Buddhist ones did. Can you give me a source?
Mahasiddha as a word already means they attained buddhahood. Other than that, in all versions of the texts that I recall, in the end of almost every biography, it is said that the mahasiddha went to the realm of the dakinis.
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heart
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas authorize others to teach?

Post by heart »

Varis wrote: Sun May 13, 2018 1:11 pm
heart wrote: Sat May 12, 2018 7:20 pm Read any book on the 84 mahasiddhas. A few of them where not Buddhists but attained the same level of realisation.

/magnus
I don't recall any of their stories saying that they attained the Bhumis like the Buddhist ones did. Can you give me a source?
Any book, if you are a siddha you have attained realisation.

/magnus
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Berry
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas authorize others to teach?

Post by Berry »

.

"Buddha's Lions - The Lives of the Eighty-Four Siddha's" by Abhayadatta, translated by James B.Robinson is an enjoyable read.

https://shop.dharmapublishing.com/produ ... dhas-lions


.
Leave the polluted water of conceptual thoughts in its natural clarity. Without affirming or denying appearances, leave them as they are. When there is neither acceptance nor rejection, mind is liberated into mahāmudra.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas authorize others to teach?

Post by dzogchungpa »

heart wrote: Sun May 13, 2018 2:09 pm
Varis wrote: Sun May 13, 2018 1:11 pm
heart wrote: Sat May 12, 2018 7:20 pm Read any book on the 84 mahasiddhas. A few of them where not Buddhists but attained the same level of realisation.

/magnus
I don't recall any of their stories saying that they attained the Bhumis like the Buddhist ones did. Can you give me a source?
Any book, if you are a siddha you have attained realisation.

/magnus


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PSM
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas authorize others to teach?

Post by PSM »

dzogchungpa wrote: Fri May 11, 2018 10:17 pm Well, Minapa's guru was Shiva ...
And Virupa destroyed a shrine to Shiva and converted his followers to Buddhism. It's all a bit confusing if you try to keep to rigid rules, which might actually be the point.
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas authorize others to teach?

Post by tingdzin »

This and similar threads about qualifications mostly seem to be rooted in people either challenging notions of authority or asserting them. As one poster 'way back said, from a practitioner's standpoint (as opposed to that of people who just like Internet conversations and spinning out more fascinating detours into discursive thought), it is most important to examine one's own motivations for being interested in the question. Most people who have a strong opinion are on the one hand probably interested in either finding justification for following their own preferences in practice and/or for setting themselves up as teachers, or, on the other hand, assuring themselves that they are doing it right, and that people who do it differently are not.

If sincere practitioners tune out all the "noise" from the back-and-forth of these discussions, and try to see what motivates the posters, trying to avoid the two extremes mentioned above, they can get a good idea of what kind of teacher they would prefer to follow. Thinking that everyone should follow one's own favored approach is, of course, a sign of personal insecurity and a misunderstanding of what Buddhist practice is all about.

Other points by the way:
1) Even "authorized" teachers can be charlatans; one's own judgment is paramount. If one is not deceiving oneself, it will be much more difficult to be deceived by others in this matter.
2) The stories of the 84 mahasiddhas are not to be taken as justifying one or another opinion on this sort of question, as their historicity (in the Western critical sense) is dubious. Rather they are pointers to a sphere that is broader than our petty concerns with samsaric power.
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ratna
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas authorize others to teach?

Post by ratna »

fckw wrote: Sun May 13, 2018 12:24 pm That's interesting, can you say more about it?
With a complete main initiation of one of the four classes of tantra, one also receives the vajra-master empowerment that invests one with the authority to give initiations, teach the tantras, perform consecrations, etc.

Of course, having received this empowerment is a necessary but not sufficient condition for acting as a vajra master -- one must also know what one is doing (mastering the ten fields of tantric expertise, etc), do the necessary retreats, and have other necessary qualifications.

R
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dzogchungpa
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas authorize others to teach?

Post by dzogchungpa »

tingdzin wrote: Mon May 14, 2018 6:43 amThinking that everyone should follow one's own favored approach is, of course, a sign of personal insecurity and a misunderstanding of what Buddhist practice is all about.

Well spoken.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas authorize others to teach?

Post by conebeckham »

ratna wrote: Mon May 14, 2018 1:23 pm
fckw wrote: Sun May 13, 2018 12:24 pm That's interesting, can you say more about it?
With a complete main initiation of one of the four classes of tantra, one also receives the vajra-master empowerment that invests one with the authority to give initiations, teach the tantras, perform consecrations, etc.

Of course, having received this empowerment is a necessary but not sufficient condition for acting as a vajra master -- one must also know what one is doing (mastering the ten fields of tantric expertise, etc), do the necessary retreats, and have other necessary qualifications.

R
There are different levels of Vajra Master Empowerment, as well. Or, rather, different Tantras have different explanations of the "Vajra Master" empowerment, which is usually given after the Fourth, or "Word," empowerment. Sometimes it is not given, but in all cases it's true that it is "not a sufficient condition" as you state. I think it is a necessary one, though, in most Sarma systems, at least.
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas authorize others to teach?

Post by Kris »

The BRUB:
    • Given that the path can be traversed solely through this depth of confidence, it is acceptable to apply effort only with practice. If that is not the case and a person claims to be one who can show this path to others, it is imperative that they at least have experience based upon extensive personal study and contemplation because this path must be comprehended beyond any doubt in order to benefit both self and others. In particular, a teacher must never mistake the path; because if that were the case, then whatever they teach would be in error. Hence, this importance of being armed with the extensive knowledge of study and contemplation can never be underestimated. By diligently severing doubt through hearing and deliberation concerning all external knowable things -- through meditation, the dharmata must be sustained. Secretly, the self-awareness of basic space and awareness will be nakedly induced, bringing constant association with the naked realization of dharmakaya.
The profound path of the master.
-- Virūpa, Vajra Lines
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Josef
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas authorize others to teach?

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Sennin wrote: Mon May 14, 2018 6:01 pm The BRUB:
    • Given that the path can be traversed solely through this depth of confidence, it is acceptable to apply effort only with practice. If that is not the case and a person claims to be one who can show this path to others, it is imperative that they at least have experience based upon extensive personal study and contemplation because this path must be comprehended beyond any doubt in order to benefit both self and others. In particular, a teacher must never mistake the path; because if that were the case, then whatever they teach would be in error. Hence, this importance of being armed with the extensive knowledge of study and contemplation can never be underestimated. By diligently severing doubt through hearing and deliberation concerning all external knowable things -- through meditation, the dharmata must be sustained. Secretly, the self-awareness of basic space and awareness will be nakedly induced, bringing constant association with the naked realization of dharmakaya.
The BRUB is more concerned with letters of recognition than the authenticity of personal, intimate practice experience ;)
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas authorize others to teach?

Post by Kris »

Josef wrote: Tue May 15, 2018 1:16 am
Sennin wrote: Mon May 14, 2018 6:01 pm The BRUB:
    • Given that the path can be traversed solely through this depth of confidence, it is acceptable to apply effort only with practice. If that is not the case and a person claims to be one who can show this path to others, it is imperative that they at least have experience based upon extensive personal study and contemplation because this path must be comprehended beyond any doubt in order to benefit both self and others. In particular, a teacher must never mistake the path; because if that were the case, then whatever they teach would be in error. Hence, this importance of being armed with the extensive knowledge of study and contemplation can never be underestimated. By diligently severing doubt through hearing and deliberation concerning all external knowable things -- through meditation, the dharmata must be sustained. Secretly, the self-awareness of basic space and awareness will be nakedly induced, bringing constant association with the naked realization of dharmakaya.
The BRUB is more concerned with letters of recognition than the authenticity of personal, intimate practice experience ;)
Aww you got me...that's not the BRUB...but Longchenpa...I tried to sneak it by.
The profound path of the master.
-- Virūpa, Vajra Lines
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Palzang Jangchub
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas authorize others to teach?

Post by Palzang Jangchub »

Then, of course, there are wannabe cult leaders who, having neither authorization to teach, nor realization, impart a correct understanding of certain Dharma concepts that is later verified by bonafide teachers. So maybe we can learn from even the sketchiest people up to a point, though certainly a qualified guru is best to lead us on the path.
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"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme

དྲིན་ཆེན་རྩ་བའི་བླ་མ་སྐྱབས་རྗེ་མགར་ཆེན་ཁྲི་སྤྲུལ་རིན་པོ་ཆེ་ཁྱེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ།།
རྗེ་བཙུན་བླ་མ་མཁས་གྲུབ་ཀརྨ་ཆགས་མེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ། ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོཿ
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Josef
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas authorize others to teach?

Post by Josef »

fckw wrote: Sun May 13, 2018 7:21 am Very interesting: So far nobody presented a strong case why teaching authorisation was part of the lineage system in the early days of Vajrayana. This settles an uncertainty I had on this topic for quite some time in a, for me, surprising way.
Not only early Vajrayana. This notion of explicit authorizations is shiny and new. There is a difference between being told to teach (which we hear often in namthar) and being given permission to do so. Often, in the stories of great masters they exhibit great humility and through that humility do not put themselves in the position of reverence. They are encouraged to teach by others.
It seem that the notion of being encouraged to teach has been conflated with "permission" to do so.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
Varis
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas authorize others to teach?

Post by Varis »

Aryjna wrote: Sun May 13, 2018 1:16 pm Mahasiddha as a word already means they attained buddhahood. Other than that, in all versions of the texts that I recall, in the end of almost every biography, it is said that the mahasiddha went to the realm of the dakinis.
heart wrote: Sun May 13, 2018 2:09 pm Any book, if you are a siddha you have attained realisation.

/magnus
Reading again their biographies the implication appears to be that Minapa and Gorakshanath were not tirthikas. Although their guru is Shiva, he was teaching Buddhadharma not Shaivism. Keith Dowman also notes that Minapa and Gorakshanath take 500 years and aeons, respectively, to attain Buddhahood unlike their peers who attained liberation in one lifetime.
"I have never encountered a person who committed bad deeds." ― Ven. Jìngkōng
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Palzang Jangchub
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas authorize others to teach?

Post by Palzang Jangchub »

Varis wrote: Tue May 15, 2018 7:10 pm [...] the implication appears to be that Minapa and Gorakshanath were not tirthikas. Although their guru is Shiva, he was teaching Buddhadharma not Shaivism.
Shiva is also considered a worldly protector of the Buddhadharma. In Mipham Rinpoche's Tashi Gyepa prayer, he refers to Shiva by the name Dejung (bde 'byung) or Sukhajāta, the "origin of bliss."

http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-mas ... cious-ones

And then of course there is the historical/scholarly concern of whether the Shaiva Tantras or Buddhist Tantras came first, if one had influence over the other and to what extent. Not to mention Vajrayana augmenting Hindu iconography to make it Buddhist, such as Shiva's trishul(a) becoming Guru Rinpoche's khatvanga, etc., etc. ...
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"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme

དྲིན་ཆེན་རྩ་བའི་བླ་མ་སྐྱབས་རྗེ་མགར་ཆེན་ཁྲི་སྤྲུལ་རིན་པོ་ཆེ་ཁྱེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ།།
རྗེ་བཙུན་བླ་མ་མཁས་གྲུབ་ཀརྨ་ཆགས་མེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ། ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོཿ
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