Guru Devotion

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A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha »

conebeckham wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:01 pm I am going to agree about limitless possibilities.....for example, while one is maintaining pure vision of the guru, you're doing a Drupcho and he leans over next to you and says "Do I smell like Shit?" and he expects an answer.
I don't know what a Drupcho is....but what would you have said ? I think when you're dealing with your teacher....you better be honest. Because they can smell your shit a mile away...


5 minutes later :

ok...i looked it up (drupcho). Now it makes scents... :jumping:
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conebeckham
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by conebeckham »

:smile:
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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dzogchungpa
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by dzogchungpa »

Another Buddhist dad joke? smh
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Josef
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by Josef »

dzogchungpa wrote: Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:54 pm Another Buddhist dad joke? smh
I think you started this.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.
A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha »

What if......after many years....you find out that the teacher you were devoted to... wasn't your teacher.....because you never received any empowerment's from him !!!!!!!!!


(Talk about a Buddhist dad joke...).

True Story. ...
PSM
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by PSM »

Kunga Lhadzom wrote: Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:49 pm What if......after many years....you find out that the teacher you were devoted to... wasn't your teacher.....because you never received any empowerment's from him !!!!!!!!!


(Talk about a Buddhist dad joke...).

True Story. ...
They are your teacher in a Buddhist sense, just not one you have received vajrayana teachings from. Vajrayana is just a subset of all the available Buddhist teachings out there.
pemachophel
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by pemachophel »

someone is your teacher even if you only receive a single line of Dharma from them. an empowerment Lama is only one kind of Lama.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha »

pemachophel wrote: Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:13 pm someone is your teacher even if you only receive a single line of Dharma from them. an empowerment Lama is only one kind of Lama.
Ok...so which Lama requires Samaya. ?

(Thank you for replying Pemachophel.)

:heart:
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Josef
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by Josef »

Kunga Lhadzom wrote: Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:24 pm
pemachophel wrote: Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:13 pm someone is your teacher even if you only receive a single line of Dharma from them. an empowerment Lama is only one kind of Lama.
Ok...so which Lama requires Samaya. ?

(Thank you for replying Pemachophel.)

:heart:
The empowerment lama.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.
A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha »

Josef wrote: Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:36 pm The empowerment lama.
Thank you Josef :heart:
pemachophel
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by pemachophel »

maybe not as cut and dried as josef and loppon namdrol (malcolm) imply. i have to practice now, but i hope to have time for a longer post tomorrow.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha »

pemachophel wrote: Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:33 am maybe not as cut and dried as josef and loppon namdrol (malcolm) imply. i have to practice now, but i hope to have time for a longer post tomorrow.
:heart:
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Sonam Wangchug
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by Sonam Wangchug »

boda wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:44 pm
TharpaChodron wrote: Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:37 am ...practitioners have a broader view than merely believing gurus are always above reproach.
So devotion to a guru may include a guru being reproached by their student?
Not exactly.

The keypoint of the Varjayana path is pure perception to one's lama, if one can't hope at having pure perception of one's lama then it's highly unlikely that ones pure perception would extend to anyone else either.

For example, if a lama is to ask you about something that they appear to not be knowledgeable in, the approach is not to assume therefore that the lama is unenlightened and that's why they are asking, but rather, that it's a teaching, that the lama is giving one an opportunity to accumulate merit etc, actually perceiving a lama one has received ripening empowerment from as being deluded, is not permitted.

Does that mean one instantly has to, or will even be able to have that level of perception? I would think not, as it depends on practicing, and accumulating merit, and for most students, we are not blessed to have a pure perception initially. (Rare exceptions) however it's helpful to keep in mind our aim as practitioners. A Skillful, and realized lama, will guide the student accordingly with their level. This is why it's said the Sravaka vows are like a clay pot, once broken, it's finished, however the Tantric samayas are like a golden vase, easily dented, yet easily bent back into shape through means of confession and restoration. (Dorje sempa, Tsoks, Etc)

Mileage will vary, if you want to see examples of pure perception, the older generation of lamas tend to be quite exceptional in their pure perception of their teachers. For example, One of my teachers who is nearing 100 years old, Says clearly that one is to perceive the lama as the yidam of the particular empowerment one has received. It's quite simple really, and yet, people don't seem to like this instruction, so there are infinite amounts of conceptual elaboration, which do not stem from the Tantras or oral instructions of the lineage.

However, keep in mind, that the Lama is not merely some external perfect entity. 'out there'. When one lacks merit Buddha nature appears as phenomenal existence, when one has merit, Buddha nature appears as the 'external guru' who guides one to the 'inner guru'. However the outer and inner guru are inseparable. Having pure view has a lot to do with our own phenomena, and purifying our own mind and perceptions, of which the guru is a reflection. When you perceive the lama as having flaws, the lama at that point stops being the 'guru' and is at that point ' projection of mind'.

Of course, there have been lama's who from a certain perspective were pretty terrible, however when one purifies their mind, suddenly it seems, the understanding of that lama's secret qualities are also revealed.

There was a Great Terton by the name of Drikung Terton osel dorje, Externally he seemed to be a drunk, and tell lies quite often, however, he was in fact a sublime being, A teacher of Jamyang khyentse wangpo, and authenticated by him.

One of his students said something which became a bit of a popular expression, H.E Garchen rinpoche mentioned it once, The student said " There is no one worse in all of tibet then My guru, There is no one better in all of tibet than my guru", When he was an immature disciple corresponding to his own mental projections, and lack of wisdom, he perceived his teacher as being full of fault. When he practiced the dharma his teacher taught him, his own perception became totally purified.

This isn't just a game of Semantics, It's not unknown for cultivated yogis to walk into their teachers room for example, and perceive Vajadhara, Some yogis even perceive all beings as Vajradhara.

Sometimes i'm really not sure how beneficial discussing the Secret mantra is online, Even with good intentions, things can be taken the wrong way, twisted, and so forth. However, better than asking people online about devotion and it's implications in a Vajrayana context, would be to study the root texts, and if you ever do receive an empowerment from a qualified vajaryana master, ask them and go on what they say.

Hope it's helpful, Just a drop of Namtok in the ocean.
Last edited by Sonam Wangchug on Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:35 am, edited 4 times in total.
"To have confidence in the teacher is the ultimate refuge." -Rigzin Jigme Lingpa
A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha »

PSM wrote: Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:13 pm
Kunga Lhadzom wrote: Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:49 pm What if......after many years....you find out that the teacher you were devoted to... wasn't your teacher.....because you never received any empowerment's from him !!!!!!!!!


(Talk about a Buddhist dad joke...).

True Story. ...
They are your teacher in a Buddhist sense, just not one you have received vajrayana teachings from. Vajrayana is just a subset of all the available Buddhist teachings out there.
Thank you PSM :heart: (i just saw your reply now )
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Sonam Wangchug
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by Sonam Wangchug »

dzogchungpa wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:58 pm
Thomas Amundsen wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:36 pm
Josef wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:47 am

It depends. The possible circumstances are limitless.
Aside from Malcolm's comment about an unqualified guru who has deceived their students into thinking they are qualified, can you give one of those limitless examples? I'm trying to see what example there could be, but my impression is that once you enter into a samaya relationship with an authentic vajra guru, the only option is to maintain pure vision of the guru.


If I recall correctly, some examples are mentioned in "Reproaching the Guru from Afar".
:good: :rolling:
"To have confidence in the teacher is the ultimate refuge." -Rigzin Jigme Lingpa
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Yavana
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by Yavana »

Given some of what's been written here, it sounds as though the teacher-student relationship in Vajrayana is a deeply intimate one, in a platonic kind of way.
Simon E.
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by Simon E. »

Well, deep anyway.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
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dzogchungpa
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by dzogchungpa »

The Cicada wrote: Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:51 am Given some of what's been written here, it sounds as though the teacher-student relationship in Vajrayana is a deeply intimate one, in a platonic kind of way.


As CTR said, "Devotion is somewhat like a spiritual love affair."
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

lelopa wrote: Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:37 am
Josef wrote: Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:04 am
If you have received empowerment, and recognized the nature of mind you aren't taking anything at face value.
You have the knowledge to apply authentic discernment and bring all of that to the table.
That is when the teacher, student relationship becomes truly profound. When the student is truly able to be an active participant through the guidance of an authentic teacher.
:good:
Yes. That is true.
For many people, such as beginners, having recognized the nature of mind is not something one should assume.
So, I'm interested in how people regard the development and manifestation of guru devotion.
.
.
.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook develops outward insight.
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Josef
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by Josef »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:39 pm
lelopa wrote: Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:37 am
Josef wrote: Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:04 am
If you have received empowerment, and recognized the nature of mind you aren't taking anything at face value.
You have the knowledge to apply authentic discernment and bring all of that to the table.
That is when the teacher, student relationship becomes truly profound. When the student is truly able to be an active participant through the guidance of an authentic teacher.
:good:
Yes. That is true.
For many people, such as beginners, having recognized the nature of mind is not something one should assume.
So, I'm interested in how people regard the development and manifestation of guru devotion.
.
.
.
There are different levels of devotion based upon faith, confidence, experience etc.
They are also related to outer, inner, and secret gurus and are related to each individuals circumstances.
We end up having so many discussions on topics like this because we approach them looking for universal answers, the secret mantra is so vast and profound that seeking singular answers to questions as complex and intimate as samaya and guru devotion often end up being unresolved. It is up to the practitioner to resolve them.

Rigid and dogmatic perspectives are limited and fall short of the intent of the secret mantra teachings.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.
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