Terminology aside, I do not see Sakya, Nyingma or Kagyu uses accomplishment state in completion stage to meditate on a conceptual emptiness derived through Madhyamika reasoning. Only Gelug.Malcolm wrote: ↑Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:13 pmSakyas and Nyingmapas do not use the terminology, no.WeiHan wrote: ↑Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:08 pmI don't think other schools use the clear light mind attained through HYT to meditate on conceptual emptiness previously arrived at analytically. I only find this approach in Gelug's teaching.Malcolm wrote: ↑Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:40 pm All Tibetan schools holds that a correct, inferential understanding of emptiness is necessary. Where they disagree is mostly on pedagogy. For example, the Gelugpas claim that even if one is practicing Vajrayāna, one must nevertheless still engage in analytical meditation based on identifying the proper object of negation according to Madhyamaka reasons.
Sakya, on the other hand, maintains that the example wisdom demonstrated during empowerment corresponds with a proper inferential understanding of emptiness, and it is on the basis of this one practices.
Why does Gelug school claim emptiness means things exist without self nature?
Re: Why does Gelug school claim emptiness means things exist without self nature?
Re: Why does Gelug school claim emptiness means things exist without self nature?
It's true that I've never spent a lot of time delving into descriptions of the state of buddhahood, mainly because my focus has always been on the stages leading to that. (Confession of a "lamrimpa": I have never felt a need to rush to conclusion; I've tried to lay a foundation. That's the "gradual" in my "graduated" path.) Anyway, I don't know where to look for confirmation of that as a Gelug tenet. Could you point me to a source?Malcolm wrote: ↑Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:11 pmAccording the Gelug school, Buddhas can think thoughts, recognize objects, and so on. It is the position of the Sakya school that Buddhas are utterly free from thought at all times.Jeff H wrote: ↑Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:01 pmYes, I agree there's a difference in pedagogical approaches, but with the same ultimate outcome. I don't think you are disagreeing with that, right? When Josef says, "intellectual analysis of Tsongkhapa's view was sufficient", if he means sufficient to result in direct realization of emptiness or enlightenment, that's what I'm objecting to. I don't think Gelugpas claim that. And I'm quite certain they don't believe Buddhas have dualistic minds.Malcolm wrote: ↑Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:40 pm All Tibetan schools holds that a correct, inferential understanding of emptiness is necessary. Where they disagree is mostly on pedagogy. For example, the Gelugpas claim that even if one is practicing Vajrayāna, one must nevertheless still engage in analytical meditation based on identifying the proper object of negation according to Madhyamaka reasons.
Sakya, on the other hand, maintains that the example wisdom demonstrated during empowerment corresponds with a proper inferential understanding of emptiness, and it is on the basis of this one practices.
In any case, buddhas thinking thoughts and recognizing objects must still be a non-dualistic process, certainly without any trace of grasping. If buddhas interact with sentient beings, some kind of dependently arisen distinction must manifest, right? Couldn't that be taken as non-reified ideation by one school and pure spontaneity by another?
On this point, yes, there is initial clinging to a concept, but the concept is refined as far as possible through reason and then meditated on until it eventually disappears altogether. I'd also qualify the "necessity" by restricting it to those who choose to follow Tsongkhapa (or are led to Gelug by their karma). It may take longer and be less direct than the Sakya method (I know nothing about Sakya), but all dualistic conceptuality must be abandoned in the end. Incidentally, the way Geshe Tashi Tsering introduces his Two Truths module is by saying we need to so thoroughly investigate the conventional that we emerge in the ultimate.What the Sakyapas object to most about Gelug view is the statement that clinging to an intellectual representation of emptiness is acceptable and even necessary. Thus, there is some disagreement about what it means when Nāgārjuna says, "Without relying on the conventional, the ultimate will not be understood."
Where now is my mind engaged? - Shantideva
Re: Why does Gelug school claim emptiness means things exist without self nature?
I don't think I agree. For example, when one, a beginner, dissolves appearances into emptiness, is that emptiness conceptual or nonconceptual? When at the end of a sadhana one dissolves the deity into emptiness, is that emptiness conceptual or nonconceptual? If one is below the path of seeing, it is conceptual by necessity. The difference is that emptiness is based on the example wisdom of the empowerment rather than analysis.WeiHan wrote: ↑Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:17 pmTerminology aside, I do not see Sakya, Nyingma or Kagyu uses accomplishment state in completion stage to meditate on a conceptual emptiness derived through Madhyamika reasoning. Only Gelug.
Re: Why does Gelug school claim emptiness means things exist without self nature?
OK. The difference is probably between analytical or not. While we are at it, maybe we can clarify the dzogchen ati practice. Does an authentic trechok practice requires one to be resting non-conceptually in Rigpa? if If it is so, then all genuine practitioners of Trechok are necessarily at least on or above the path of seeing?Malcolm wrote: ↑Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:50 pm
I don't think I agree. For example, when one, a beginner, dissolves appearances into emptiness, is that emptiness conceptual or nonconceptual? When at the end of a sadhana one dissolves the deity into emptiness, is that emptiness conceptual or nonconceptual? If one is below the path of seeing, it is conceptual by necessity. The difference is that emptiness is based on the example wisdom of the empowerment rather than analysis.
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Re: Why does Gelug school claim emptiness means things exist without self nature?
"Resting" in rigpa is still a conceptual approach to the Dzogchen view. It's a necessary conceit, but it's still selling water by the river. Fearing concepts on the path is just another thought; of necessity we depend on approximations as an entry to practice.WeiHan wrote: ↑Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:54 amOK. The difference is probably between analytical or not. While we are at it, maybe we can clarify the dzogchen ati practice. Does an authentic trechok practice requires one to be resting non-conceptually in Rigpa? if If it is so, then all genuine practitioners of Trechok are necessarily at least on or above the path of seeing?Malcolm wrote: ↑Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:50 pm
I don't think I agree. For example, when one, a beginner, dissolves appearances into emptiness, is that emptiness conceptual or nonconceptual? When at the end of a sadhana one dissolves the deity into emptiness, is that emptiness conceptual or nonconceptual? If one is below the path of seeing, it is conceptual by necessity. The difference is that emptiness is based on the example wisdom of the empowerment rather than analysis.
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava
-Padmasambhava
Re: Why does Gelug school claim emptiness means things exist without self nature?
Rigpa is utterly non-conceptual. If you can rest in rigpa for half a day, you are on the path of seeing. But ordinary Dzogchen practitioners can't rest in rigpa longer than a few moments at a time.WeiHan wrote: ↑Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:54 amOK. The difference is probably between analytical or not. While we are at it, maybe we can clarify the dzogchen ati practice. Does an authentic trechok practice requires one to be resting non-conceptually in Rigpa? if If it is so, then all genuine practitioners of Trechok are necessarily at least on or above the path of seeing?Malcolm wrote: ↑Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:50 pm
I don't think I agree. For example, when one, a beginner, dissolves appearances into emptiness, is that emptiness conceptual or nonconceptual? When at the end of a sadhana one dissolves the deity into emptiness, is that emptiness conceptual or nonconceptual? If one is below the path of seeing, it is conceptual by necessity. The difference is that emptiness is based on the example wisdom of the empowerment rather than analysis.
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: Why does Gelug school claim emptiness means things exist without self nature?
The question is framed incorrectly. Treckhöd is best described in general terms as a practice in which insight into emptiness and śamatha are combined. But below the path of seeing, this insight is conceptual, based on the example wisdom of the direct introduction. However, the emptiness meditated upon in trekchöd is also inferential until one mounts the path of seeing. There really is no difference between perfection of wisdom, mahāmudra, Chan/Zen, etc., and tregchöd. I have heard it said that Tulku Orgyen asserted that trekchöd exists in all yānas, perhaps EPK would be kind enough to confirm this. What separates from trekchöd from these other systems of the method of introduction. Trekchöd, like any secret mantra practice, is based on empowerment/introduction.WeiHan wrote: ↑Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:54 amOK. The difference is probably between analytical or not. While we are at it, maybe we can clarify the dzogchen ati practice. Does an authentic trechok practice requires one to be resting non-conceptually in Rigpa? if If it is so, then all genuine practitioners of Trechok are necessarily at least on or above the path of seeing?Malcolm wrote: ↑Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:50 pm
I don't think I agree. For example, when one, a beginner, dissolves appearances into emptiness, is that emptiness conceptual or nonconceptual? When at the end of a sadhana one dissolves the deity into emptiness, is that emptiness conceptual or nonconceptual? If one is below the path of seeing, it is conceptual by necessity. The difference is that emptiness is based on the example wisdom of the empowerment rather than analysis.
Re: Why does Gelug school claim emptiness means things exist without self nature?
Actually, what one is resting is empty clarity. However, below the path of seeing, the emptiness of that clarity is a conceptual inference. However, when meditating, we just rest in the clarity aspect without engaging in concepts like "this is empty." We know already that it is empty since we confirmed this analytically during rushan of the mind or the semzin of gradual and sudden emptiness.
Re: Why does Gelug school claim emptiness means things exist without self nature?
This now finally makes sense for me. I remember Yangthang Rinpoche have said that Treckchod is the combining of samatha and the view. What I was unsure is whether the "view" need to be a nonconceptual experience of emptiness. It is finally clarified.Malcolm wrote: ↑Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:25 pm
The question is framed incorrectly. Treckhöd is best described in general terms as a practice in which insight into emptiness and śamatha are combined. But below the path of seeing, this insight is conceptual, based on the example wisdom of the direct introduction. However, the emptiness meditated upon in trekchöd is also inferential until one mounts the path of seeing. There really is no difference between perfection of wisdom, mahāmudra, Chan/Zen, etc., and tregchöd. I have heard it said that Tulku Orgyen asserted that trekchöd exists in all yānas, perhaps EPK would be kind enough to confirm this. What separates from trekchöd from these other systems of the method of introduction. Trekchöd, like any secret mantra practice, is based on empowerment/introduction.
That said, which system of buddhist meditation wouldn't combine samatha and insight (vipassana) as its goal?
Re: Why does Gelug school claim emptiness means things exist without self nature?
If there is really no difference between perfection of wisdom, Chan/Zen etc..What is the element in Treckcod that separates it from the rest as an extremely swift path? At least I have never heard that perfection of wisdom, chan/zen which are sutrayana practices can attain rainbow bodies in this very life.Malcolm wrote: ↑Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:25 pm
There really is no difference between perfection of wisdom, mahāmudra, Chan/Zen, etc., and tregchöd. I have heard it said that Tulku Orgyen asserted that trekchöd exists in all yānas, perhaps EPK would be kind enough to confirm this. What separates from trekchöd from these other systems of the method of introduction. Trekchöd, like any secret mantra practice, is based on empowerment/introduction.
Re: Why does Gelug school claim emptiness means things exist without self nature?
Empowerment.WeiHan wrote: ↑Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:24 pmIf there is really no difference between perfection of wisdom, Chan/Zen etc..What is the element in Treckcod that separates it from the rest as an extremely swift path? At least I have never heard that perfection of wisdom, chan/zen which are sutrayana practices can attain rainbow bodies in this very life.Malcolm wrote: ↑Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:25 pm
There really is no difference between perfection of wisdom, mahāmudra, Chan/Zen, etc., and tregchöd. I have heard it said that Tulku Orgyen asserted that trekchöd exists in all yānas, perhaps EPK would be kind enough to confirm this. What separates from trekchöd from these other systems of the method of introduction. Trekchöd, like any secret mantra practice, is based on empowerment/introduction.
Re: Why does Gelug school claim emptiness means things exist without self nature?
Is gting gsal explained in vehicles beside Dzogchen?Malcolm wrote: ↑Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:48 pmEmpowerment.WeiHan wrote: ↑Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:24 pmIf there is really no difference between perfection of wisdom, Chan/Zen etc..What is the element in Treckcod that separates it from the rest as an extremely swift path? At least I have never heard that perfection of wisdom, chan/zen which are sutrayana practices can attain rainbow bodies in this very life.Malcolm wrote: ↑Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:25 pm
There really is no difference between perfection of wisdom, mahāmudra, Chan/Zen, etc., and tregchöd. I have heard it said that Tulku Orgyen asserted that trekchöd exists in all yānas, perhaps EPK would be kind enough to confirm this. What separates from trekchöd from these other systems of the method of introduction. Trekchöd, like any secret mantra practice, is based on empowerment/introduction.
The profound path of the master.
-- Virūpa, Vajra Lines
-- Virūpa, Vajra Lines
Re: Why does Gelug school claim emptiness means things exist without self nature?
The blessing coming from the Guru? Since there is a saying that Dzogchen is a path which the Guru transfers his realisation to his students directly.Malcolm wrote: ↑Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:48 pmEmpowerment.WeiHan wrote: ↑Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:24 pmIf there is really no difference between perfection of wisdom, Chan/Zen etc..What is the element in Treckcod that separates it from the rest as an extremely swift path? At least I have never heard that perfection of wisdom, chan/zen which are sutrayana practices can attain rainbow bodies in this very life.Malcolm wrote: ↑Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:25 pm
There really is no difference between perfection of wisdom, mahāmudra, Chan/Zen, etc., and tregchöd. I have heard it said that Tulku Orgyen asserted that trekchöd exists in all yānas, perhaps EPK would be kind enough to confirm this. What separates from trekchöd from these other systems of the method of introduction. Trekchöd, like any secret mantra practice, is based on empowerment/introduction.
Re: Why does Gelug school claim emptiness means things exist without self nature?
I have not encountered it in other traditions.Sennin wrote: ↑Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:07 pmIs gting gsal explained in vehicles beside Dzogchen?Malcolm wrote: ↑Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:48 pmEmpowerment.WeiHan wrote: ↑Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:24 pm
If there is really no difference between perfection of wisdom, Chan/Zen etc..What is the element in Treckcod that separates it from the rest as an extremely swift path? At least I have never heard that perfection of wisdom, chan/zen which are sutrayana practices can attain rainbow bodies in this very life.
Re: Why does Gelug school claim emptiness means things exist without self nature?
Re: Why does Gelug school claim emptiness means things exist without self nature?
Thanks for the quick reply. These are the two on page 249 of The Precious Vase?Malcolm wrote: ↑Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:47 pmIn the classical tradition of seven semszins, the two final ones are gradual and sudden emptiness. You can find them described elsewhere.
Re: Why does Gelug school claim emptiness means things exist without self nature?
This answer/understanding solidifies my opinion that doing an elaborate Guru Yoga sadhana that contains detail self empowerment is better than practicing teckchod which afterall on its own without Guru yoga is just a sutric practice.Malcolm wrote: ↑Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:48 pmEmpowerment.WeiHan wrote: ↑Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:24 pmIf there is really no difference between perfection of wisdom, Chan/Zen etc..What is the element in Treckcod that separates it from the rest as an extremely swift path? At least I have never heard that perfection of wisdom, chan/zen which are sutrayana practices can attain rainbow bodies in this very life.Malcolm wrote: ↑Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:25 pm
There really is no difference between perfection of wisdom, mahāmudra, Chan/Zen, etc., and tregchöd. I have heard it said that Tulku Orgyen asserted that trekchöd exists in all yānas, perhaps EPK would be kind enough to confirm this. What separates from trekchöd from these other systems of the method of introduction. Trekchöd, like any secret mantra practice, is based on empowerment/introduction.
Last edited by WeiHan on Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Why does Gelug school claim emptiness means things exist without self nature?
That does not really make any sense.WeiHan wrote: ↑Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:43 pmThis answer/understanding solidifies my opinion that doing an elaborate Guru Yoga sadhana that contains detail self empowerment is better than practicing teckchod which afterall on its own with Guru yoga is just a sutra practice.Malcolm wrote: ↑Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:48 pmEmpowerment.WeiHan wrote: ↑Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:24 pm
If there is really no difference between perfection of wisdom, Chan/Zen etc..What is the element in Treckcod that separates it from the rest as an extremely swift path? At least I have never heard that perfection of wisdom, chan/zen which are sutrayana practices can attain rainbow bodies in this very life.
Re: Why does Gelug school claim emptiness means things exist without self nature?
None whatsoever.Aryjna wrote: ↑Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:47 pmThat does not really make any sense.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa