I am learning a lot from people, but also a lot about people I have conversed with for years - and it is all good.

There is one disjointed PIA who needs a bonk on the bonce though.

When I had an old fashioned hi-fi system there was a switch called 'noise reduction' and it would be really easy to say that people should perform a similar 'switch' and ignore the noise about the Guru and somehow let the positive flow through and feed their path to bliss.
Sadly, when it comes to dodgy Lamas, if you try to hit that 'filter' switch, you get electrocuted. Your path is wrecked, your confidence shattered and your ability to rationalise is ruined.
Much of the conversation has ignored the Western context with regard to the Lama's cannon fodder. Many will have tried several paths and teachers before. Osho anyone? This makes it even more sad and even more pithy in that the one path which could show them that they need to work on their own minds, just ends up reinforcing the 'Saviour Seeker' mentality.
Of course there is a spectrum, but charisma always trumps virtue, as we have seen repeatedly. Tens of thousands of gullible people follow a falied Lama and his sexually predatory senior staff because they need to believe in a saviour. Others give themselves to an abusive Lama in just the same way as a person accepts abuse from a spouse. The idea that in some way they must be accepting this through free will is a nonsense ....... people can be brainwashed slowly and insidiously and accept a reality which is harmful to them.
So, in a nutshell, I would like everyone to watch out for the 'saviour seekers' in their sangha. I know it is really for the Guru to deal with them, but we can all help. We won't always win - I've seen two friends end up wrecking their family life and giving all their money to a Gyalpo cult, and it hurts deeply that I failed to prevent it..............but we must try!