Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

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Mantrik
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Mantrik »

I hope Mods don't close this thread because of the off-topic and meta-macho-meathead stuff.

I am learning a lot from people, but also a lot about people I have conversed with for years - and it is all good. :)

There is one disjointed PIA who needs a bonk on the bonce though. ;)

When I had an old fashioned hi-fi system there was a switch called 'noise reduction' and it would be really easy to say that people should perform a similar 'switch' and ignore the noise about the Guru and somehow let the positive flow through and feed their path to bliss.

Sadly, when it comes to dodgy Lamas, if you try to hit that 'filter' switch, you get electrocuted. Your path is wrecked, your confidence shattered and your ability to rationalise is ruined.

Much of the conversation has ignored the Western context with regard to the Lama's cannon fodder. Many will have tried several paths and teachers before. Osho anyone? This makes it even more sad and even more pithy in that the one path which could show them that they need to work on their own minds, just ends up reinforcing the 'Saviour Seeker' mentality.

Of course there is a spectrum, but charisma always trumps virtue, as we have seen repeatedly. Tens of thousands of gullible people follow a falied Lama and his sexually predatory senior staff because they need to believe in a saviour. Others give themselves to an abusive Lama in just the same way as a person accepts abuse from a spouse. The idea that in some way they must be accepting this through free will is a nonsense ....... people can be brainwashed slowly and insidiously and accept a reality which is harmful to them.

So, in a nutshell, I would like everyone to watch out for the 'saviour seekers' in their sangha. I know it is really for the Guru to deal with them, but we can all help. We won't always win - I've seen two friends end up wrecking their family life and giving all their money to a Gyalpo cult, and it hurts deeply that I failed to prevent it..............but we must try!
Last edited by Mantrik on Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Punya »

If you read Aryadeva's 400 verses you will discover there the Madyamaka refutation of family lineages.
Are you making a distinction between lineage and family lineage, Malcolm?

HHDL has said:
Within the context of Tibetan Buddhism, the importance of lineage extends far beyond the ordinary sense of a particular line of inheritance or descent. Lineage is a sacred trust through which the integrity of Buddha's teachings is preserved intact as it is transmitted from one generation to the next. The vital link through which the spiritual tradition is nourished and maintained is the profound connection between an enlightened master and perfectly devoted disciple.
Are you disagreeing with this?

Some might view it is free speech but, to me, describing someone's argument as 'bullshit" is disrespectful regardless of who it's directed to. Personally, I think all genuine Buddhist teachers, tulkus or otherwise, and regardless of tradition, should be treated respectfully. There are precious few of them.
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Minobu »

Mantrik wrote: Sadly, when it comes to dodgy Lamas, if you try to hit that 'filter' switch, you get electrocuted. Your path is wrecked, your confidence shattered and your ability to rationalise is ruined.
!
and thats exactly why the thread is off topic and showing us just what we all have been subjected to.
it's not about one thing...it's a matrix that has misguided everyone of us at one time or another.

there is a plethora of off topics to be concerned with in this thread to come...the whole affair is off topic. or
Malcolm wrote:, and I think it has nothing to do with the Dharma.
there is a cordial way and a crazy wisdom way...births are needed from both.

hopefully it is just a coincidence that you posted this right after my artful dodge.
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Malcolm »

Punya wrote:
If you read Aryadeva's 400 verses you will discover there the Madyamaka refutation of family lineages.
Are you making a distinction between lineage and family lineage, Malcolm?

HHDL has said:
Within the context of Tibetan Buddhism, the importance of lineage extends far beyond the ordinary sense of a particular line of inheritance or descent. Lineage is a sacred trust through which the integrity of Buddha's teachings is preserved intact as it is transmitted from one generation to the next. The vital link through which the spiritual tradition is nourished and maintained is the profound connection between an enlightened master and perfectly devoted disciple.
Are you disagreeing with this?
I think Āryadeva's rebuttal of lineage can apply to Buddhist lineages as well, especially Vajrayāna lineages. The longer the lineage, the more chance that someone in the lineage broke samaya. This is akin to a king being unsure of who fathered his son and heir, which is the example Āryadeva used.

This is why my guru counseled me that is was best to practice new termas, and discouraged me from practicing older termas like Longchen Nyinthig, etc.

As for HHDL's comment, I don't think there are very many awakened masters or perfectly devoted students at all in this age of the five degenerations.
Some might view it is free speech, but to me describing someone's argument as 'bullshit" is disrespectful regardless of who it's directed to.
Some people are a little more sensitive than others. Dzongsar likes using the word "bullshit," he does so often to describe this and that.
Personally I think all genuine Buddhist teachers, tulkus or otherwise, and regardless of tradition, should be respected. There are precious few of them.
Everyone is deserving of respect, regardless of who they are or where they come from. Being a Buddhist teacher certainly does not entitle one to more respect than anyone else.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Punya »

I think Āryadeva's rebuttal of lineage can apply to Buddhist lineages as well, especially Vajrayāna lineages. The longer the lineage, the more chance that someone in the lineage broke samaya. This is akin to a king being unsure of who fathered his son and heir, which is the example Āryadeva used.

This is why my guru counseled me that is was best to practice new termas, and discouraged me from practicing older termas like Longchen Nyinthig, etc.
DJKR also seems to hold this view as, from what I've seen, he mostly give his students practices from the termas of his predecessors. Although I guess it could equally be about preserving and continuing lineage.
Everyone is deserving of respect, regardless of who they are or where they come from. Being a Buddhist teacher certainly does not entitle one to more respect than anyone else.
Yes and no. I guess we'll have to disagree on this one. If I was standing somewhere and a bomb went off I know who I would be protecting first. So, in my view, Buddhist teachers are more precious than the rest of us (because they carry the thread) and therefore should be treated as such.
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Malcolm »

Punya wrote:
Everyone is deserving of respect, regardless of who they are or where they come from. Being a Buddhist teacher certainly does not entitle one to more respect than anyone else.
Yes and no. I guess we'll have to disagree on this one. If I was standing somewhere and a bomb went off I know who I would be protecting first.
Small children.


So, in my view, Buddhist teachers are more precious than the rest of us (because they carry the thread) and therefore should be treated as such.
No one is more precious than anyone else. Either we are all precious, or no one is.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Thomas Amundsen »

Johnny Dangerous wrote:Pure/Impure Vision is a Vajrayana thing, and it strikes me as an incongruent model as far as the Dzogchen view goes as taught by ChNN.
That would be interesting. I hadn't thought about it that way before, but I guess perhaps it makes sense.
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Malcolm »

tomamundsen wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:Pure/Impure Vision is a Vajrayana thing, and it strikes me as an incongruent model as far as the Dzogchen view goes as taught by ChNN.
That would be interesting. I hadn't thought about it that way before, but I guess perhaps it makes sense.
Impure vision is trekchö; pure vision is thögal. However, with the latter there is nothing you have to transform. You just have to get really, really, good at integrating with impure vision (trekchö) before you are generally given instructions (thögal) on how to allow pure vision to naturally unfold right before your very eyes without making any effort to transform anything or even entertaining thoughts such as "this is pure."

If you have to make an effort to have pure vision, you are already screwed.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by TRC »

Nemo wrote:I think some of the folks here need to hang with some arrogant young Tulkus and then watch them fail at life over 20+ years. They are only as good as their training. If their heads are filled with pseudo-aristocratic misogyny and self importance creepy old men forcing girls one third their age into orgies and beating them to stay quiet about it is what we get. The 1,000,000$ payout to just one of these women should set off some alarm bells. No one has even tried to refute the mountain of accusations. WE have a serious issue with corrupt patriarchal hierarchies. If we disrespect the Dakinis we will never attain realization.

Sometimes people are sent half way around the world for a reason. Perhaps no one wanted them around. Many young Tibetans teachers are business men. They support their extended family and without Dharma they would be losers. This is not the previous generation. I had to leave one group because he was likely banging his attendant and young Sangha members.They get ghostwriters, buy fancy mildly ridiculous clothes and pretend to be wise. They fight for and demand titles so they can make more money. Once they have them they share praise for other phonies. Real yogis and Tertons often go hungry and unnoticed. Businessmen always have an angle and court money, sex and power. Just having these things should make a teacher suspect. A dog cannot jump like a lion. Sometimes even if you have the skills teaching is not for you. Admitting you should be a private yogi because you would just bang all your students is at least honest.
This just about covers it. Great summary of the issues.
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Adamantine »

Malcolm wrote:
If you have to make an effort to have pure vision, you are already screwed.
Well DJKR's explanation in his FB post re: pure vision of the Guru as you might see them in his examples "appear to be" drowning or forgetting something
seems to require a good amount of effort, and possibly cognitive dissonance. . although that seems standard practice in Vajrayana pre-Atiyoga view.
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Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Malcolm »

Adamantine wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
If you have to make an effort to have pure vision, you are already screwed.
Well DJKR's explanation in his FB post re: pure vision of the Guru as you might see them in his examples "appear to be" drowning or forgetting something
seems to require a good amount of effort, and possibly cognitive dissonance. . although that seems standard practice in Vajrayana pre-Atiyoga view.
It is a misapplication of the principle.

For example, if I am a very mature student, deeply devoted to my teacher, I will see everything that happens to me as the kindness of my guru. I will understand everything he or she does, whether fart, shit, belch, rant, rave, die, and so on, as a Dharma teaching for me personally.

But it is not realistic to expect that anyone is going to develop that kind of devotion to anyone in a day, a year, a decade, or even many lifetimes.
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Punya »

buddhagirl wrote:
Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
But, I guess .. (according to the perceptions of some here.) The guy is a bit of a dull-whit, as some people think he doesn't even know what Samaya is, despite the fact of having by very high likelihood received more teachings, then anyone here in their lifetime has or ever will on the topic.
He's also GIVEN "more teachings, than anyone here in their lifetime has or ever will on the topic!

It's not about absolute authority based on worldly ambitions, it's a matter of respect and devotion for lineage masters.

Some people seem to think Rinpoche has nothing better to do with his time then benefit from his position, (Despite the fact that for example at one of his last major events he urged people not to keep offering many things, due to his concern about them being properly used, to not create waste, and to instead donate towards Translating the words of The Buddha, if they were to want to donate.)

You can also find at the back of his most recent book The Guru drinks Bourbon that all the Proceeds were being donated by rinpoche to charity. Enough is enough of unfounded and unsubstantiated claims. Rinpoche is an authentic teacher of the dharma, and while he can have a bewildering air about him at times, if one truly observes, they will see how far reaching his vision is, and how much concern he has for the Dharma, ( not just the tibetan tradition either. )
No one said he's a dullwit. He just does not seem to be very clear and seems to be dissimulating. He pointed out his own misgivings of Lakar but stopped short of saying he isn't a qualified teacher and no samayas were created to be broken, yet at the same time he seems to be insinuating that students had broken samaya.
No not a dullwit by any stretch - a Khyentse after all! Before the current brouha-ha, in searching for possible rationale's for his bizarre put-downs of 'liberals' ie. those on the progressive side of politics, and for memory, those involved in social justice, i've wondered whether this stuff bugs him as it sort of drowns out the Buddhist voice. He's used to being in a position of authority, a monastic aristocrat if you like, and perhaps resents the dominant voice of other humanitarians in the global discourse. DKR's praise of members of the Bhutanese Royal family is also a bit one-eyed (i'm choosing my words carefully) and has put down feminists in earlier talks/writings.

All of this upsets me as I still have great respect for DKR. I wish he and OTR could just admit they have a bit of a conflict of interest when it comes to assessing Sogyal & Rigpa, and hence, can't be totally objective. Though why they can't show compassion for the abused Rigpa students who are experiencing a crisis of faith and abuse-related trauma is beyond me.
This might help you understand DJKR's "bizarre" put down of liberals and feminists buddhagirl https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=63&t=26313.
Last edited by Punya on Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Thomas Amundsen »

Malcolm wrote:
tomamundsen wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:Pure/Impure Vision is a Vajrayana thing, and it strikes me as an incongruent model as far as the Dzogchen view goes as taught by ChNN.
That would be interesting. I hadn't thought about it that way before, but I guess perhaps it makes sense.
Impure vision is trekchö; pure vision is thögal. However, with the latter there is nothing you have to transform. You just have to get really, really, good at integrating with impure vision (trekchö) before you are generally given instructions (thögal) on how to allow pure vision to naturally unfold right before your very eyes without making any effort to transform anything or even entertaining thoughts such as "this is pure."

If you have to make an effort to have pure vision, you are already screwed.
:thanks:
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Karma_Yeshe »

Nemo wrote: Businessmen always have an angle and court money, sex and power. Just having these things should make a teacher suspect.
Yes, a Vajrayana Guru who has sex and power is just a horrible idea. It clearly shows he has no ordinary siddhis :roll:
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Malcolm wrote:
tomamundsen wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:Pure/Impure Vision is a Vajrayana thing, and it strikes me as an incongruent model as far as the Dzogchen view goes as taught by ChNN.
That would be interesting. I hadn't thought about it that way before, but I guess perhaps it makes sense.
Impure vision is trekchö; pure vision is thögal. However, with the latter there is nothing you have to transform. You just have to get really, really, good at integrating with impure vision (trekchö) before you are generally given instructions (thögal) on how to allow pure vision to naturally unfold right before your very eyes without making any effort to transform anything or even entertaining thoughts such as "this is pure."

If you have to make an effort to have pure vision, you are already screwed.
Great post, the bolded bit was what I meant by saying he seems less authoritarian in the way he talks about it; often feels like other Vajrayana teachers will mention making a lot of effort to see the Guru purely, "you mustn't do x"..just like DJKR's piece, almost like a kind of scolding, and a teaching style which personally I cannot identify with.
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by dzogchungpa »

Malcolm wrote:Dzongsar likes using the word "bullshit," he does so often to describe this and that.
Is that actually true? I've listened to and heard a fair amount of his stuff and I don't recall him using that word very often, or even at all. He's certainly not afraid to use 'shit' and its derivatives but I honestly don't think he says "Such and such is bullshit." very often. So, I daresay, this comment of yours is 100% bullshit. :smile:
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Nemo »

Karma_Yeshe wrote:
Nemo wrote: Businessmen always have an angle and court money, sex and power. Just having these things should make a teacher suspect.
Yes, a Vajrayana Guru who has sex and power is just a horrible idea. It clearly shows he has no ordinary siddhis :roll:
It is not the siddhi. It is the attachment to the sex and power. The massaging of particular favourites based on what they can give. Abuse of power is not a siddhi as far as I know.
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by TaTa »

Malcolm wrote:
Adamantine wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
If you have to make an effort to have pure vision, you are already screwed.
Well DJKR's explanation in his FB post re: pure vision of the Guru as you might see them in his examples "appear to be" drowning or forgetting something
seems to require a good amount of effort, and possibly cognitive dissonance. . although that seems standard practice in Vajrayana pre-Atiyoga view.
It is a misapplication of the principle.

For example, if I am a very mature student, deeply devoted to my teacher, I will see everything that happens to me as the kindness of my guru. I will understand everything he or she does, whether fart, shit, belch, rant, rave, die, and so on, as a Dharma teaching for me personally.

But it is not realistic to expect that anyone is going to develop that kind of devotion to anyone in a day, a year, a decade, or even many lifetimes.
To me this seems to be ignoring cause and effect and even discouraging people to practice if they are not spontanously devoted to a guru. I do understand that that devotion can and does arise naturally from the view but that doesnt mean that the other approach doesnt work o that some people are more prone to that approach.

Btw who is expecting to develop that kind of devotion in one day, a year or whatever. Clearly not DJKR. Or at least i interpret quite the opposite from his several texts in the matter

Did i misinterpret somethingg?
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by TaTa »

Malcolm wrote:
tomamundsen wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:Pure/Impure Vision is a Vajrayana thing, and it strikes me as an incongruent model as far as the Dzogchen view goes as taught by ChNN.
That would be interesting. I hadn't thought about it that way before, but I guess perhaps it makes sense.
Impure vision is trekchö; pure vision is thögal. However, with the latter there is nothing you have to transform. You just have to get really, really, good at integrating with impure vision (trekchö) before you are generally given instructions (thögal) on how to allow pure vision to naturally unfold right before your very eyes without making any effort to transform anything or even entertaining thoughts such as "this is pure."

If you have to make an effort to have pure vision, you are already screwed.
This is a very usefull quote that i will keep around
But it in tantra effort is ok right?
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Norwegian »

dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Dzongsar likes using the word "bullshit," he does so often to describe this and that.
Is that actually true? I've listened to and heard a fair amount of his stuff and I don't recall him using that word very often, or even at all. He's certainly not afraid to use 'shit' and its derivatives but I honestly don't think he says "Such and such is bullshit." very often. So, I daresay, this comment of yours is 100% bullshit. :smile:
Some random Dzongsar Khyentse:
[...]If it is an interfaith religious conference, again I have to be hypocritical and I have to sort be careful, oh ya ya all religion are same. You know like everything leads to the heaven and all of that. But that’s actually a bullshit. Because it is not.
I’m also very wary of the way too many teachers (even those belonging to Krishnamurti’s organization) extract just one aspect of Buddha’s teachings, bury the Buddhist jargon, then claim that everything they say is their own revelation. It’s complete bullshit! Every word they say can be traced back to the sutras and tantras. So never forget that these ‘new age’ teachers merely focus on a single point that already exists in Buddhadharma, then present it as their own.
"The Guru is the Buddha, the Guru is the Dharma,
The Guru is the Sangha too,
The Guru is Śrī Heruka.
The All-Creating King is the Guru."

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