Dalai Lama about non sectarian approach towards Buddhist study and practice.

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Tsongkhapafan
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Re: Dalai Lama about non sectarian approach towards Buddhist study and practice.

Post by Tsongkhapafan »

Grigoris wrote:
Tsongkhapafan wrote:This is quite simply discontentment. We drink both because neither one satisfies us completely. It's samsaric restlessness or 'looking for a better option'.
No it's not.
No it's not because.....?

Sometimes yes, sometimes no - and certainly not in their entirety, otherwise we would all be practising only one tradition.

Now you are just being obtuse. The FACT that all traditions practice practices from other traditions means that no tradition is pure.
Yes, it is pure, it's pure Buddhadharma. If it's not, it's not Buddhism. For example, earlier you claimed that Buddhism mixed with Bon - that's simply not true.
Why is there so much disagreement between traditions on the meaning of the teachings on emptiness then?

Human folly. Ignorance. The incompleteness (or incapacity) of the relative terms being used to describe the ultimate.
But clearly there is no consensus - so who's right? Is everyone right or is everyone wrong?

Clearly, if you try to follow one presentation of emptiness, say in the Nyingma school, and you encounter the presentation of emptiness in the Gelugpa school, there will be incompatibility and confusion. 45 plus pages of discussion on the thread 'How Madhyamika Philosophy Solves the Mystery of Quantum Physics' proves that so you cannot practise more than one tradition without receiving contradictory or conflicting information that leads to doubt and uncertainty.
Last edited by Tsongkhapafan on Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Tsongkhapafan
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Re: Dalai Lama about non sectarian approach towards Buddhist study and practice.

Post by Tsongkhapafan »

dzogchungpa wrote:
Tsongkhapafan wrote:But according to our understanding, all these horses have the same function - to take us to enlightenment and they all can, so why not just climb onto one and let it take you to the final goal?

Aren't they all thoroughbreds?

Unless... you really don't believe that one horse can do it for you. That's called 'hedging your bets' :smile:
I think people are concerned about the possibility of this kind of thing:

Hobby horse.jpg
There's no need to worry if we are all following pure traditions with a lineage that can be traced back to Buddha.
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Karinos
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Re: Dalai Lama about non sectarian approach towards Buddhist study and practice.

Post by Karinos »

why the hell someone would be confused by different traditions or philosophical views?
learning sophisticated language you are using in your debates here is more complicated probably then understanding different philosophical views (intellectually). Not to mention that many here have probably college or master education.
Come on guys, secondary school math is more complicated then that.

Just put an effort in understanding and learn history.

As Dalai Lama said, there is no danger here. Danger is to blindly follow sectarian Lamas who say - "you will be punished by protectors" or "protectors of this school don't like protectors from that school" (or similar nonsense). Unfortunately there are many of them in all schools ...
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Tsongkhapafan
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Re: Dalai Lama about non sectarian approach towards Buddhist study and practice.

Post by Tsongkhapafan »

Karinos wrote:why the hell someone would be confused by different traditions or philosophical views?
I refer you to this

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=102&t=24265
Just put an effort in understanding and learn history.


What's the point of that?
As Dalai Lama said, there is no danger here. Danger is to blindly follow sectarian Lamas who say - "you will be punished by protectors" or "protectors of this school don't like protectors from that school" (or similar nonsense).
I agree, all the protector conflict is superstitious nonsense, but you destroy your own credibility if you destroy the credibility of your Gurus.
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Karinos
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Re: Dalai Lama about non sectarian approach towards Buddhist study and practice.

Post by Karinos »

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Karinos wrote:why the hell someone would be confused by different traditions or philosophical views?
I refer you to this

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=102&t=24265
Just put an effort in understanding and learn history.


What's the point of that?
As Dalai Lama said, there is no danger here. Danger is to blindly follow sectarian Lamas who say - "you will be punished by protectors" or "protectors of this school don't like protectors from that school" (or similar nonsense).
I agree, all the protector conflict is superstitious nonsense, but you destroy your own credibility if you destroy the credibility of your Gurus.
1. I prefer reading scriptures and commentaries, not scribbles on forums - thank you
2. Learning history will open your eyes on Tibetan sectarianism and how it occured - political agendas behind it etc.
3. You do not destroy your credibility by point out mistakes of your teachers - the same way like HHDL did with Pabonkha sectarianism and dangerous practices. HHDL said that clearly and many times. If your Lama is wrong, tell that loud and clear. A true Mahayana master will either take criticism and improve, or explain why you are wrong. There is no disrespect in it
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Re: Dalai Lama about non sectarian approach towards Buddhist study and practice.

Post by dzogchungpa »

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
Tsongkhapafan wrote:But according to our understanding, all these horses have the same function - to take us to enlightenment and they all can, so why not just climb onto one and let it take you to the final goal?

Aren't they all thoroughbreds?

Unless... you really don't believe that one horse can do it for you. That's called 'hedging your bets' :smile:
I think people are concerned about the possibility of this kind of thing:

Hobby horse.jpg
There's no need to worry if we are all following pure traditions with a lineage that can be traced back to Buddha.
Sadly, there's also this kind of thing to worry about:
Trojan horse.jpg
Trojan horse.jpg (68.31 KiB) Viewed 2013 times
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Dalai Lama about non sectarian approach towards Buddhist study and practice.

Post by Grigoris »

Tsongkhapafan wrote:Yes, it is pure, it's pure Buddhadharma. If it's not, it's not Buddhism. For example, earlier you claimed that Buddhism mixed with Bon - that's simply not true.
Maybe in your little fantasy world it's not true...
But clearly there is no consensus - so who's right? Is everyone right or is everyone wrong?

Clearly, if you try to follow one presentation of emptiness, say in the Nyingma school, and you encounter the presentation of emptiness in the Gelugpa school, there will be incompatibility and confusion. 45 plus pages of discussion on the thread 'How Madhyamika Philosophy Solves the Mystery of Quantum Physics' proves that so you cannot practise more than one tradition without receiving contradictory or conflicting information that leads to doubt and uncertainty.
The only contradictions regarding emptiness are those that exist in our mind... Emptiness is emptiness. Only our conception of it differs. Concepts and conception, being relative, are always incomplete and a basis for conjecture.

But since now it's all about these kind of horses...

Image

...which is inevitable when talking with sectarians... I am now jumping off the ride.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Re: Dalai Lama about non sectarian approach towards Buddhist study and practice.

Post by Bristollad »

Tsongkhapafan wrote:Clearly, if you try to follow one presentation of emptiness, say in the Nyingma school, and you encounter the presentation of emptiness in the Gelugpa school, there will be incompatibility and confusion.
Why? Are you suggesting that emptiness explained is different? That the explanations differ does not mean that one is right or that one is wrong, it simply means that they differ in how they are explaining the same thing.

When I explain any mundane thing more than once, the explanations will differ even if I'm explaining it to the same person. If my audience changes as well, then explanations can be very different. Does that make one explanation right or one wrong? No - just different.

When I asked my father for directions on how to get somewhere, he would always direct from pub to pub (take the 2nd right after the Rose and Crown), my mother would explain based on churches and shops (carry on up the hill until you see Woolworths on your left then turn right after the graveyard). Personally, I tended to remember the different character of the hedgerows and particular trees (turn right after seeing the big Yew tree). Were these directions wrong? No. Were they describing different journeys? No. Could it be helpful to hear all these different directions for the same journey - most likely, if you kept in mind their particular rationale.

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Re: Dalai Lama about non sectarian approach towards Buddhist study and practice.

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Tsongkhapafan wrote:earlier you claimed that Buddhism mixed with Bon - that's simply not true.
Right. And there is no climate change. And we have never landed on the moon. And it was Hitler who shot JFK.
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche
Bristollad
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Re: Dalai Lama about non sectarian approach towards Buddhist study and practice.

Post by Bristollad »

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Tsongkhapafan wrote:earlier you claimed that Buddhism mixed with Bon - that's simply not true.
Right. And there is no climate change. And we have never landed on the moon. And it was Hitler who shot JFK.
shh! no-one's meant to know! :spy:
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Re: Dalai Lama about non sectarian approach towards Buddhist study and practice.

Post by DGA »

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Tsongkhapafan wrote:earlier you claimed that Buddhism mixed with Bon - that's simply not true.
Right. And there is no climate change. And we have never landed on the moon. And it was Hitler who shot JFK.
...and Trump who killed Hitler with his own huge, throbbing man-hands...
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Re: Dalai Lama about non sectarian approach towards Buddhist study and practice.

Post by DGA »

Bristollad wrote:
Tsongkhapafan wrote:Clearly, if you try to follow one presentation of emptiness, say in the Nyingma school, and you encounter the presentation of emptiness in the Gelugpa school, there will be incompatibility and confusion.
Why? Are you suggesting that emptiness explained is different? That the explanations differ does not mean that one is right or that one is wrong, it simply means that they differ in how they are explaining the same thing.

When I explain any mundane thing more than once, the explanations will differ even if I'm explaining it to the same person. If my audience changes as well, then explanations can be very different. Does that make one explanation right or one wrong? No - just different.

When I asked my father for directions on how to get somewhere, he would always direct from pub to pub (take the 2nd right after the Rose and Crown), my mother would explain based on churches and shops (carry on up the hill until you see Woolworths on your left then turn right after the graveyard). Personally, I tended to remember the different character of the hedgerows and particular trees (turn right after seeing the big Yew tree). Were these directions wrong? No. Were they describing different journeys? No. Could it be helpful to hear all these different directions for the same journey - most likely, if you kept in mind their particular rationale.
This is a useful analogy and a helpful post.
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Re: Dalai Lama about non sectarian approach towards Buddhist study and practice.

Post by Karma_Yeshe »

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Tsongkhapafan wrote:earlier you claimed that Buddhism mixed with Bon - that's simply not true.
Right. And there is no climate change. And we have never landed on the moon. And it was Hitler who shot JFK.
The way I see it, it is more that Bön mixed with Buddhism, than vice versa. Also if some secondary "wordly" practices are included into Vajrayana, that is not mixing imo.

It would really help the discussion if you name some aspects, where it mixed the way you claim, btw.

Karma Yeshe
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Re: Dalai Lama about non sectarian approach towards Buddhist study and practice.

Post by Grigoris »

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Tsongkhapafan wrote:earlier you claimed that Buddhism mixed with Bon - that's simply not true.
Right. And there is no climate change. And we have never landed on the moon. And it was Hitler who shot JFK.
What? I thought it was Elvis... You learn something new every day!
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Re: Dalai Lama about non sectarian approach towards Buddhist study and practice.

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Karma_Yeshe wrote:
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Tsongkhapafan wrote:earlier you claimed that Buddhism mixed with Bon - that's simply not true.
Right. And there is no climate change. And we have never landed on the moon. And it was Hitler who shot JFK.
The way I see it, it is more that Bön mixed with Buddhism, than vice versa. Also if some secondary "wordly" practices are included into Vajrayana, that is not mixing imo.

It would really help the discussion if you name some aspects, where it mixed the way you claim, btw.

Karma Yeshe
Come on, Karma Yeshe. We have got 97% of religious scholars of TB in agreement here ;-) Just open your Snellgrove, Samuel, Cabezon, Kapstein, etc.

Btw, if you say that Bon mixed with Buddhism, you are implying a two-way relationship. And actually that seems to have been the case, if by Bon you mean pre-Buddhist Tibetan religious traditions.
Karma_Yeshe wrote:Also if some secondary "wordly" practices are included into Vajrayana, that is not mixing imo.
Very much mixing in my book.
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche
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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Dalai Lama about non sectarian approach towards Buddhist study and practice.

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Grigoris wrote:
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Tsongkhapafan wrote:earlier you claimed that Buddhism mixed with Bon - that's simply not true.
Right. And there is no climate change. And we have never landed on the moon. And it was Hitler who shot JFK.
What? I thought it was Elvis... You learn something new every day!
No. Elvis did kill Bambi, though.
DGA wrote:...and Trump who killed Hitler with his own huge, throbbing man-hands...
Thank you for that image. I shall treasure it till the day I die, basking in its warm comforting glow. :crying:
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche
DGA
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Re: Dalai Lama about non sectarian approach towards Buddhist study and practice.

Post by DGA »

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
DGA wrote:...and Trump who killed Hitler with his own huge, throbbing man-hands...
Thank you for that image. I shall treasure it till the day I die, basking in its warm comforting glow. :crying:
At the risk of streaming this discourse far from the topic, Gen. Michael Flynn just phoned in a correction from his supervisor. It is as follows:
Dear Leader wrote:Дональд Трамп убил Гитлера с мочой проститутки
:focus:
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Re: Dalai Lama about non sectarian approach towards Buddhist study and practice.

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

DGA wrote:
Dear Leader wrote:Дональд Трамп убил Гитлера с мочой проститутки
I have always known you know more than you say you know, but this, this...

:focus:
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche
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Grigoris
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Re: Dalai Lama about non sectarian approach towards Buddhist study and practice.

Post by Grigoris »

Tsongkhapafan wrote:This is quite simply discontentment. We drink both because neither one satisfies us completely. It's samsaric restlessness or 'looking for a better option'...
No it's not because.....?
Because I am the type of person that wear gumboots when it is raining, sandals when it is stinking hot and lined boots in the dead of winter.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Re: Dalai Lama about non sectarian approach towards Buddhist study and practice.

Post by conebeckham »

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
Tsongkhapafan wrote:But according to our understanding, all these horses have the same function - to take us to enlightenment and they all can, so why not just climb onto one and let it take you to the final goal?

Aren't they all thoroughbreds?

Unless... you really don't believe that one horse can do it for you. That's called 'hedging your bets' :smile:
I think people are concerned about the possibility of this kind of thing:

Hobby horse.jpg
There's no need to worry if we are all following pure traditions with a lineage that can be traced back to Buddha.
Yes, but this depends very much on which accounts you believe, and who you put your trust in. All Tibetan Dharma, even Bon, claims to originated with Buddhas, enlightened ones. Various people have spent great amounts of energy to advance various positions about themselves, vis a vis other lineages, throughout the history of Tibetan Dharma. Some argue that Terma is not BuddhaDharma. Some argue Bon is not BuddhaDharma. Some argue that Kalachakra is not BuddhaDharma. some argue that Dzogchen is not BuddhaDharma. Some argue that all Tantra is not BuddhaDharma. Some take issue with various mundane, and in some cases allegedly supramundane, "protector" practices. There has been, and continues to be, contention regarding the "correct" interpretation of various Sutras and Shastras, and also some contention about Vinaya lineages, as well.

My own personal take on the issue of Sectarianism, and "Rimay" approach, is based on my own experience, which is informed by my teachers, as well as by my own education. With regard to the "philosophical content" of BuddhaDharma, I take it as a paramount truth that reality is beyond conceptual ken, but that, nonetheless, conceptual paths are necessary for the vast majority of students, at least as a foundation. All conceptual systems--Madhyamaka, Yogacara, Shentong Madhyamaka, etc., are partial. Tantra, as a method using Skillful means, uses concepts and formulations, as well as imagination and personal experience, and it stresses samaya, and, therefore, lineage. In that sense, "Lineage" is far more important for Vajrayana practitioners than for those who have not entered this path.

If we are talking about the four, five, or six institutional schools of Tibetan Dharma (including Bon and Jonang to make six), there has been, and there continues to be, much cross-fertilization, and sometimes even pure "innovation," over the course of history. All lineages have their origin stories, often with what we'd call "apocryphal elements," but in reality each of us receives our own lineage from our teachers, and these teachers have received their lineages from their teachers. In some sense, each is a unique lineage. I say that I am Karma Kagyu by affiliation, for instance, but my personal tantric practices come from Atisha, Gampopa, the Shangpa traditions and Lamas and their Indian Mahasiddha forefathers, and several "Nyingma" tertons, as well. There is no conflict I see in maintaining these various practices. I also respect the valid traditions of others, though I do not engage in them. Those I find invalid, I leave alone. I follow the traditions of my teachers, with an informed faith. This is the heart of "Rimay" attitude, I think.

It's funny, people go on and on about being nonsectarian, or belittling others for their "lack of nonsectarian-ness." Meanwhile, very few people who have taken empowerment actually bring practice to fruition, or even seek and receive the complete teachings of any given system. Very few of us here can honestly be said to hold any lineage whatsoever. Those that do practice seriously, and maintain a daily practice, or do retreats, are the exception rather than the common rule. Collecting a bunch of empowerments, and dabbling in a variety of practices without extensive effort, is not "Rimay." It's a waste of time-unless, of course, one has the pith instructions which allow one to incorporate various practices into one's path. This could be in reference to a Dzogchen approach, or a Mahamudra approach, or some other approach, based on one's teacher's advice.

I think it's fair to say that the "Rimay Movement" as we know it really does mean something like the above pith advice. Malcolm made the point, a while back, that the Rimay Movement was mainly just a movement to incorporate Dzogchen in the institutional lineages of the Kagyu and Sakya, and to legitimize Dzogchen. It was also, historically, inspired by a counter-sectarian tendency that stemmed from Phabongka and his innovations regarding the Geluk tradition and lay practice amongst Tibetans.
Last edited by conebeckham on Mon Jan 23, 2017 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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