The practice as an obstacle

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Kelwin
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Re: The practice as an obstacle

Post by Kelwin »

Johnny Dangerous wrote:If openness is there in sitting practice, it should also be possible in Sadhana practice. In fact, it IS available, you are just missing it right now, which is a temporary situation. So if somehow you feel emotional blockages that are only there in the Sadhana, I'd try to find the root of that. I know for me it came down to an unnoticed expectation I had about Sadhana practice. Once I realized that it was there, it eased. I've found personally that Vajrayana practices can make me very discursive it I start them with subtle expectations.

It sounds cliche, but delving into the habitual patterns of your own mind might be a help, because there is something going on below the surface blocking the openness, the openness can't go away, you just can't see it right now.
Thanks Johnny, sounds very sensible. I am aware that the openness is available during the sadhana practice, it's just harder to reach somehow. Cliche or not cliche, it's certainly a good idea to keep investigating my patterns, my expectations, etc. After all, that must be where the problem is :twothumbsup:
'I will not take your feelings seriously, and neither will you' -Lama Lena
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Kelwin
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Re: The practice as an obstacle

Post by Kelwin »

Sherab Dorje wrote:And how is the sadhana seperate to the Yidam exactly? :thinking:
Oh it isn't obviously! Although the actual text of the practice is certainly more conceptual than the yidam itself.
I know where you are coming from though.

To skip refuge and bodhicitta is not such a good idea though.

And making offerings is a pretty good idea, nothing like accumulating merit.
I'm not really inclined to skip them, but maybe just to let it float through my mind, instead of reading about it, saying the specific words.
Now, obviously, if you are 100% acquainted with the visualisation then I guess you could skip reading it, I skip it in some of my daily practices.
Yes I have started doing this more and more, and I find this to be extremely helpful actually. Somehow I haven't gotten that advice all that often, but it seems to be the way to go for me.
But this thing you have with the mantra, well, you are just going to have to lump that bit. I don't know a single teacher that has ever said: "The mantra repetitions are not important.' Actually, if anything, they always stress at least doing the mantra.
True! And indeed doing the mantra isn't really the big problem here. One of my teachers recently gave more emphasis on including pauses in the mantra phases though. Repeating mantras, stopping/relaxing, repeating mantras, etc. That seems to be very helpful for me at least.
'I will not take your feelings seriously, and neither will you' -Lama Lena
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Kelwin
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Re: The practice as an obstacle

Post by Kelwin »

Malcolm wrote:
  • When infinite obstacles arise for those who are properly practicing the sublime Dharma, the sole method for removing them is to supplicate the guru. An instruction better than that has never been taught, is not taught and will never be taught by all the buddhas of the three times. When all obstacles are removed, because of that, siddhi is attained. Based upon that, also all paths are traversed.
-- Guru Padmasambhava
Thank you Malcolm, that is perfect advice! I have found that during times of great mental distress, just chanting the Dusum Sangye, and opening up to the Guru, is the only thing that really works for me. The only thing that seems to have any value at all even. I guess I should simply do that much more often.

:namaste:
'I will not take your feelings seriously, and neither will you' -Lama Lena
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dharmagoat
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Re: The practice as an obstacle

Post by dharmagoat »

Kelwin wrote:
dharmagoat wrote:I do feel that if I had made it as far as mahamudra practice, I would have found my element.
That would still be an option, if you'd be interested, right? I do know Karma Kagyu teachers who focus completely on the path of shine-lhagtong-mahamudra, without any, or hardly any, sadhanas or rituals.
It remained an option for me for quite a while, but lately the scales have tipped toward Zen.

I would definitely recommend it for those wanting to maintain their connection with Vajrayana.
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Grigoris
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Re: The practice as an obstacle

Post by Grigoris »

Kelwin wrote:Yes I have started doing this more and more, and I find this to be extremely helpful actually. Somehow I haven't gotten that advice all that often, but it seems to be the way to go for me.
I's not advice my dear kelwin, I am in no position to give advice, I'm just reporting what I do. What I do may be 100% wrong! :smile:

PS Dusum Sangye is my current fave too!
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
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Re: The practice as an obstacle

Post by newbie »

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Kelwin wrote:It's the liturgy that's getting in the way. The actual sadhana practice of refuge, bodhicitta, wishes, creation, some more stuff happening, the mantra repetition, etc, until the dissolving.
And how is the sadhana seperate to the Yidam exactly? :thinking:

I know where you are coming from though.

To skip refuge and bodhicitta is not such a good idea though.

And making offerings is a pretty good idea, nothing like accumulating merit.

Now, obviously, if you are 100% acquainted with the visualisation then I guess you could skip reading it, I skip it in some of my daily practices.

But this thing you have with the mantra, well, you are just going to have to lump that bit. I don't know a single teacher that has ever said: "The mantra repetitions are not important.' Actually, if anything, they always stress at least doing the mantra.
Ok, no :quoteunquote: skipping phases.
:smile:
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Kelwin
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Re: The practice as an obstacle

Post by Kelwin »

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Kelwin wrote:Yes I have started doing this more and more, and I find this to be extremely helpful actually. Somehow I haven't gotten that advice all that often, but it seems to be the way to go for me.
I's not advice my dear kelwin, I am in no position to give advice, I'm just reporting what I do. What I do may be 100% wrong! :smile:

PS Dusum Sangye is my current fave too!
:cheers:
'I will not take your feelings seriously, and neither will you' -Lama Lena
Dharmaswede
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Re: The practice as an obstacle

Post by Dharmaswede »

It didn't get as bad as the OP, but I can relate to the turn your practice has taken.

I suspect that your experience is a little more common that one might think.

1. One mistake I did was to push too hard in my practice. This made me stay too much in the head, and lose my presence in the practice – you could say there was quantity at the expense of quality in my practice. This happened in my Ngöndro, and there were three things that reversed that:
a. Instead fulfilling certain daily quotas of accumulation, I set a specific amount of time to practice. That removed the incentive to rush.
b. Beginning the practice session with Shamatha and/or Vipassana, that settled my mind.
c. Rounding off each section in the practice by sitting with open awareness until the conceptual mind kicked back in. This allowed my mind to settle again and again, but also letting each section of the practice to blossom or take root – to experience the fruit or flavour of the momentum of each section of the practice.

Jhampa Shaneman has written a very interesting piece that relates to this: http://www.yamantaka.org/index.php/2-un ... ka-retreat

2. The other thing that really helped was getting a mentor and to discuss my practice on a regular basis.

I think it is problematic and quite sad that it is sometimes so difficult to get a little feedback and guidance on the inner processes that are initiated when we pick up certain practices – and that we are then left to our own devices.

In summary: Be kind to your self, allow space for the experience of the practice. Seek guidance. But then again, maybe this does not apply to you at all...

I really, really wish you the best of luck.

Warm Regards,

Jens
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Adamantine
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Re: The practice as an obstacle

Post by Adamantine »

Kelwin wrote:
dharmagoat wrote:I started practicing zazen in my 20s, I was self taught, and it was going fairly well. I continued reading about the various traditions of Buddhism and became fascinated by the story of Milarepa and his solitary life of meditation in the mountains. This was the way I decided I wanted to practice, so in my 30s I took up the opportunity to go for refuge with a Kagyu Lama with the aim of practicing the Mahamudra tradition of Milarepa. I was given the prerequisite Ngöndro practices and my troubles started right there, in ways very similar to what you describe. After several years of persevering to find ways to bring myself to actually practice, with virtually no assistance from my Lama, I noticed my aversion steadily growing, and eventually I became very unhappy and extremely discouraged. I lost my will to the extent that I neglected my health and became very ill as a result of what was either a vitamin deficiency or an auto-immune disorder. At that point I abandoned my practices, renounced my vows, and began to slowly recover. In my 40s I returned eventually to zazen practice but still suffered an overbearing sense of failure and doubt. Only now at 51, still feeling the lingering effects of my period of illness, do I feel free of the burden of guilt and obligation that hung over me for so long.
Wow, thanks for sharing that. I recognize a few bits, including the health trouble unfortunately.

So now, looking back, what would you have done differently? What could have been done to avoid this situation? And how do you feel about Vajrayana nowadays?

Happy to hear you're in a better place now!

I can't speak to anyone else's experience but my own. In my experience, when serious and mysterious (i.e. undiagnosable from western medicine) health issues arose during ngondro, it was purification. How do I know? Because my clairvoyant Lama told me so, and when I finished that section of the ngondro the condition resolved itself immediately. A good book to read to put these things in perspective is "Not For Happiness" a commentary on ngondro by Dzongsar Khyentse.

Regarding a type of existential exhaustion with sadhana and recitation, etc. I find this occurs primarily in the daily grind of samsaric life when trying to fit a prescribed commitment into a morning or evening routine. In my experience, the best antidote to this is to go into a retreat asap, even if it is just a short weekend or three day retreat. . but ideally 10 days minimum.. and focus on that very practice in a traditional schedule of at least four sessions of 2-3 hours interspersed with more open meditation sessions. A Lama should be able to provide a more specific schedule for your needs. By delving deeper into the resistance, you will find the golden treasure within. Your doubts and resistance will evaporate. Faith and devotion to the Lama, lineage, and all of it's reflections will be unshakeable (for now). Sometimes our resistance needs to be addressed in this way.... It's not necessarily an indication of anything intelligent.. though we often mistake it as such.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Kelwin
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Re: The practice as an obstacle

Post by Kelwin »

Dharmaswede wrote:It didn't get as bad as the OP, but I can relate to the turn your practice has taken.

I suspect that your experience is a little more common that one might think.
That's actually one reason for sharing this. I think many people just give up.

1. One mistake I did was to push too hard in my practice. This made me stay too much in the head, and lose my presence in the practice – you could say there was quantity at the expense of quality in my practice. This happened in my Ngöndro, and there were three things that reversed that:
a. Instead fulfilling certain daily quotas of accumulation, I set a specific amount of time to practice. That removed the incentive to rush.
b. Beginning the practice session with Shamatha and/or Vipassana, that settled my mind.
c. Rounding off each section in the practice by sitting with open awareness until the conceptual mind kicked back in. This allowed my mind to settle again and again, but also letting each section of the practice to blossom or take root – to experience the fruit or flavour of the momentum of each section of the practice.
That is all really excellent advice. I have already been going in that direction, but it's encouraging to hear from someone who went through the same thing, and solved it this way. Motives me to take these points more seriously, and relax more. Very happy that you took the time to reply this this thread.
Jhampa Shaneman has written a very interesting piece that relates to this: http://www.yamantaka.org/index.php/2-un ... ka-retreat

2. The other thing that really helped was getting a mentor and to discuss my practice on a regular basis.

I think it is problematic and quite sad that it is sometimes so difficult to get a little feedback and guidance on the inner processes that are initiated when we pick up certain practices – and that we are then left to our own devices.

In summary: Be kind to your self, allow space for the experience of the practice. Seek guidance. But then again, maybe this does not apply to you at all...

I really, really wish you the best of luck.

Warm Regards,

Jens
Thank you, thank you, thank you, and all the very best to you :namaste:
'I will not take your feelings seriously, and neither will you' -Lama Lena
Dharmaswede
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Re: The practice as an obstacle

Post by Dharmaswede »

One other thing I missed to mention are Sadhanas and practices that transform obstacles on the path. Such as; Vajrakilaya, Yamantaka, Riwo Sangchö, Chöd, Feeding Your Demons, Green Tara. There are many more, no doubt.

Often when we get stuck with a problem, our spontaneous reaction is try harder, to do more of the same. But sometimes it is better to do something different, rather than just using a bigger hammer. This has helped me at times as well.

My very best wishes,

Jens
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heart
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Re: The practice as an obstacle

Post by heart »

Excellent advice Jens, I will add a few also in order to be helpful.

Use the shortest sadhana you have (if you have several of different length).Do very few mantras, 108 or something like that.
Do the sadhana very slowly, sing it if you can, and put a lot of emphasis on the meaning of each part of the sadhana. For example, when doing refuge visualise the Guru/Yidam in front of you and sing the lines like a Guru yoga practice, when doing the bodhicitta open up your heart to sentient beings suffering while resting in the state of the Gur/Yidam. Spend a lot of time on the three samadhis, or the meaning of the svabhava mantra (if you do a sarma sadhana). When dissolving the deity in the end, rest there without effort for a longer time. In this way, you will rediscover the meaning of the sadhana.

My Guru Chökyi Nyima Rinpoche often told us; "Better 10 minutes happy practice rather than 1 hour unhappy practice." This is actually, in my opinion, a very profound advice. Although it sounds so easy it is actually quite difficult to apply. We seem to be habituated to consider anything that we repeat to be boring and dull.

Also, once I had a similar problem (not appreciating the practice) and asked Rinpoche who promptly told me to do a number of vajrasattva and manadala offerings. I am not suggesting anyone have to do that but I think the idea that purification and accumulation of merit and wisdom might help is valid. There are a number of simple purification practices and many different offerings that one could do.

If you got the transmission, doing vajra breathing and doing semdzins is a very efficient way to make your mind less uptight.

Just visualise your Guru in front of you and ask for help, in your own words or use some prayer that you like.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Kelwin
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Re: The practice as an obstacle

Post by Kelwin »

Dharmaswede wrote:One other thing I missed to mention are Sadhanas and practices that transform obstacles on the path. Such as; Vajrakilaya, Yamantaka, Riwo Sangchö, Chöd, Feeding Your Demons, Green Tara. There are many more, no doubt.

Often when we get stuck with a problem, our spontaneous reaction is try harder, to do more of the same. But sometimes it is better to do something different, rather than just using a bigger hammer. This has helped me at times as well.

My very best wishes,

Jens
Thanks again! However, how can we know when to change our practice a bit, and when to stick with whatever comes up? I see the value in your advice, yet at the same time there's a risk of not enduring what comes up by changing ways too early. Any rule of thumb? :smile:
'I will not take your feelings seriously, and neither will you' -Lama Lena
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Kelwin
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Re: The practice as an obstacle

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heart wrote:Excellent advice Jens, I will add a few also in order to be helpful.

Use the shortest sadhana you have (if you have several of different length).Do very few mantras, 108 or something like that.
Do the sadhana very slowly, sing it if you can, and put a lot of emphasis on the meaning of each part of the sadhana. For example, when doing refuge visualise the Guru/Yidam in front of you and sing the lines like a Guru yoga practice, when doing the bodhicitta open up your heart to sentient beings suffering while resting in the state of the Gur/Yidam. Spend a lot of time on the three samadhis, or the meaning of the svabhava mantra (if you do a sarma sadhana). When dissolving the deity in the end, rest there without effort for a longer time. In this way, you will rediscover the meaning of the sadhana.

My Guru Chökyi Nyima Rinpoche often told us; "Better 10 minutes happy practice rather than 1 hour unhappy practice." This is actually, in my opinion, a very profound advice. Although it sounds so easy it is actually quite difficult to apply. We seem to be habituated to consider anything that we repeat to be boring and dull.

Also, once I had a similar problem (not appreciating the practice) and asked Rinpoche who promptly told me to do a number of vajrasattva and manadala offerings. I am not suggesting anyone have to do that but I think the idea that purification and accumulation of merit and wisdom might help is valid. There are a number of simple purification practices and many different offerings that one could do.

If you got the transmission, doing vajra breathing and doing semdzins is a very efficient way to make your mind less uptight.

Just visualise your Guru in front of you and ask for help, in your own words or use some prayer that you like.

/magnus
Thank you Magnus, as always, for you advice! Many interesting points here that are very useful for my current situation.

However, the same question applies here, as with the advice Jens gave. How do I know if I should go for 10 minutes of 'happy' practice, instead of 1 hour of unhappy practice? After all, let's not take our happiness too seriously. Dharma practice will not always be happy, yet we should still stick with it. Where is the line between forcing too much, and to little? Any rule of thumb? :smile:
'I will not take your feelings seriously, and neither will you' -Lama Lena
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Re: The practice as an obstacle

Post by heart »

Kelwin wrote:However, the same question applies here, as with the advice Jens gave. How do I know if I should go for 10 minutes of 'happy' practice, instead of 1 hour of unhappy practice? After all, let's not take our happiness too seriously. Dharma practice will not always be happy, yet we should still stick with it. Where is the line between forcing too much, and to little? Any rule of thumb? :smile:
I do like this. First I construct a very short session. Then before starting I think "I only do the short session, no problems". Because often the biggest problem is the motivation. Once you are in session and you put all emphasis on each part of the sadhana without any stress, it often feels quite good. So maybe you do an other 100 mantras. Are you still relaxed? Do an other 100. Always stop before you feel exhausted, while you still are on top.
If you have this kind of problem you will probably have to trick yourself before every session for a long time. Often you will only do a few mantras but since you now put emphasis on every part of the sadhana even a short session will feel valuable.

I came across this quote on facebook today, it is about Ngondro but the point Kyentse Rinpoche is making is the same as I try to do.

"Although we do a hundred thousand prostrations and the same number of recitations of each of the five ngondro sections, practicing the ngondro is not simply a question of counting up numbers. The real point of these preliminaries is to appreciate that this human life offers a rare opportunity for one to achieve liberation, to realize the urgency of doing so, to generate a strong conviction that the ordinary samsaric condition produces only suffering, and to realize that suffering comes about through karma, and is the effect of negative actions. When we have a genuine understanding of these four points, the main point of ngondro has been realized. You should not merely think about them, but experience them in your very being. The correct practice of the preliminaries is to make this experience part of yourself."

- Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche - The Excellent Path To Enlightenment - Shambhala Publications

Appreciation is the real heart of the happy practice. The rule of the thumb is to notice where you are at and relax or tighten as is beneficial for you. When you benefit yourself there will be natural appreciation of the practice.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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