Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

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WeiHan
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

Post by WeiHan »

Everybody speaks about pure perception, but nobody knows what it is.
PeterC
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

Post by PeterC »

Vasana wrote: Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:34 am I actually think it would be better to have a samaya 101 thread, lock it and then disallow further samaya threads.
This is an exceedingly :good: and would also limit the potential for inadvertent breaches of samaya by talking about samaya. As well as the endless repetition of the topic. There's enough material in this thread alone to provide a 101.
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

Post by Grigoris »

PeterC wrote: Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:56 am
Vasana wrote: Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:34 am I actually think it would be better to have a samaya 101 thread, lock it and then disallow further samaya threads.
This is an exceedingly :good: and would also limit the potential for inadvertent breaches of samaya by talking about samaya. As well as the endless repetition of the topic. There's enough material in this thread alone to provide a 101.
Maybe we can stick this thread, so it is always at the top of the sub-forum. If people believe it is valuable.
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

Post by weitsicht »

I endorse the idea of sticking this thread.
Unfortunately good content intertwines with blabber and junk, doesn't make it read easily.
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE
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Dharmasherab
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

Post by Dharmasherab »

Samaya to my knowledge has specific as well as broad general meanings. In my experience when the term Samaya is used as part of usual discussion in Vajrayana communities, it is used to imply commitments towards one's teacher.

To give non-specific examples, a Lama might give a commitment of making a student do 100 000 mantra recitations within that lifetime, a different Lama might ask a student to a practice daily without missing.

Unfortunately I have broken some Samayas because some important aspects of commitments I have failed to uphold.
“When one does not understand death, life can be very confusing.” - Ajahn Chah
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

Post by heart »

Dharmasherab wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 3:36 pm Samaya to my knowledge has specific as well as broad general meanings. In my experience when the term Samaya is used as part of usual discussion in Vajrayana communities, it is used to imply commitments towards one's teacher.

To give non-specific examples, a Lama might give a commitment of making a student do 100 000 mantra recitations within that lifetime, a different Lama might ask a student to a practice daily without missing.

Unfortunately I have broken some Samayas because some important aspects of commitments I have failed to uphold.
Practice commitments are not Samaya. If you don't keep your promise to practice it certainly isn't good, but you really haven't broken your Samaya.

/magnus
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Dharmasherab
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

Post by Dharmasherab »

Thank you Magnus. In that case I need to learn what Samaya really means.
“When one does not understand death, life can be very confusing.” - Ajahn Chah
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

Post by heart »

Dharmasherab wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 1:41 pm Thank you Magnus. In that case I need to learn what Samaya really means.
https://bodhicharya.org/teachings/archi ... -vajrayana

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it

Post by penalvad_uba »

futerko wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2013 3:27 pm For me, Samaya is a two-way commitment to uphold the teachings, i.e. for the student, a commitment to practice.
Just fine and right. Seemed to me,.also, that is a vow of conserving Buddhas wisdom through unbroken lineage transmission.

Opposed to things such scientific knowledge that can be good but are not wisdom and thus does not care with conservation.

I add, and thats seems to be a personal insight, ask your Lama about it, samayas are very tree like, all are built upon the root samaya of Mahayana to liber of sentient being until samsara end. One cannot gain such and that empowerments without comserving the root
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

Post by Danny »

Sorry ... samaya only means something when it is something... in other words..
You’ve experienced samaya.
Till then is an abstract college book reading and pointless to discuss.

Sorry to say people don’t understand, is a projection that “one” does not understand. Don’t point fingers at others, a hundred will point back.
Danny
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

Post by Danny »

That above post of mine sounds harsh.

Jeez

But true from my POV
Stigg
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

Post by Stigg »

Interestingly, but perhaps not unexpected, the original poster's question begets a wider range of differing views on samaya. I am also curious whose explanation to follow.
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

Post by Karma Dorje »

Stigg wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 7:28 am Interestingly, but perhaps not unexpected, the original poster's question begets a wider range of differing views on samaya. I am also curious whose explanation to follow.
One should follow one’s guru’s explanation. If she hasn’t made it clear, then ask for clarification.
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it

Post by nyonchung »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:34 am
Karma Jinpa wrote:Namthar are certainly a source of generating devotion, if not the doctrine itself. Many of the most eminent masters have said that reading namthar is critical to remaining inspired while traversing the path.
The problem with this is when we discover that the Namthars we are supposed to rely on are merely pious fictions that deeply contradict the earliest accounts of this or that master -- Milarepa comes to mind here.

Are they 100% historically accurate? Likely not. But they do represent how the lineage has come to see their forebears, and the lessons that can be learned from how they lived, having appeared (whether as ordinary or extraordinary beings).
Or they represent an author with an agenda which may not be so obvious on the surface.
Oh, you mean literature? Taranatha said that one has to be extremely careful regarding the life of early masters (he was mentioning Marapa I think) since most of early data is often, incomplete, mangled, remixed.
Gö Lotsawa Zhönnu Pel (the author of the so-called Blue Annals" warns his reader also, notably about the extremely long lifspan of some teachers, like Khyungpo Neljor and Pga Damap Sanggyé

Still they can bring useful information if we use them carefuly, but this belongs to the realm of philology.
Early "biographies" are often collections of mgur (songs of realization) put in supposedely chronological order, and slowly organized in more developed narratives.
The most remarkable early example of careful reconstruction I know of is that of Gyelwa Tenné (1127-1217), who compiled biographies of masters of the zhijé tradition since Pha Dampa Sanggyé, the teachings they transmitted, the part of commentaries and additions that belong to succesive masters down to the few root instructions given by the Indian master. 5 volumes .
Tenné's own autobiography is a marvel.

Agendas of course, but it needs a serious knowledge of the places and times considered, and many scholarly studies I read are often shallow, contenting themselves with quoting other studies (some of course remarkable and even essential) without going in to the maze of Tibetan written material. :focus:
That was samaya
"Me and the sky don't hold views - Me and the river have no fixed practice
Me and the madman don't have a guide- Me and the rainbow have no experiences
Me, the sun and the moon have no certitudes - Me and the jewel bear no fruit" - Dampa Sanggyé as quoted by Domar Mingyur Dorjé (born 1675)
Malcolm
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it

Post by Malcolm »

nyonchung wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:21 pm The most remarkable early example of careful reconstruction I know of is that of Gyelwa Tenné (1127-1217), who compiled biographies of masters of the zhijé tradition since Pha Dampa Sanggyé, the teachings they transmitted, the part of commentaries and additions that belong to succesive masters down to the few root instructions given by the Indian master. 5 volumes .
Tenné's own autobiography is a marvel.
Dzeng Dharmabodhi, a contemporary and student of Phadampa, expressed doubt at the huge number of volumes of Shije teachings present in the mid12th century, since Phadampa didn’t actually speak much and communicated mainly in symbols.

Khyungpo Naljor, aka Lama Shang, shows up as a student of Khonchog Gyalpo in one lineage list.
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it

Post by nyonchung »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:49 pm
nyonchung wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:21 pm The most remarkable early example of careful reconstruction I know of is that of Gyelwa Tenné (1127-1217), who compiled biographies of masters of the zhijé tradition since Pha Dampa Sanggyé, the teachings they transmitted, the part of commentaries and additions that belong to succesive masters down to the few root instructions given by the Indian master. 5 volumes .
Tenné's own autobiography is a marvel.
Dzeng Dharmabodhi, a contemporary and student of Phadampa, expressed doubt at the huge number of volumes of Shije teachings present in the mid12th century, since Phadampa didn’t actually speak much and communicated mainly in symbols.
This is what Tenné did, Dzeng spent a short time with Dampa, but well before Dampa's final stay in Dingri (both Dzeng's and Dampa's biographies lack of a precise chronology - and if you find a precise chronology in a 12th or 13th century, well , somebody probably added it later)
Dzeng' biography's in the Deb ther gives the detail of the man ngag
But we should consider that Dzeng met Dampa before the long Dingri episode, when a considerable number of people came, but even Dampa Künga (main disciple) received quite abstruse symols, elliptic gdams pa
Another key figure is Zhama Lotsawa (elder brother of Machig Zhama) who obviously received detailed teachings from Dampa and translated texts giving the general context to understand the most elliptic part.

So, Tenné, not very loquacious himself, traces back the key transmisions to the brda systems, man ngag etc ... and gives them of the original cycles.

According to this tradition, like Dzeng, Machig received very few, only three man ngag from Dampa - who said that the lady was already advanced enough on the way

Tenné's own work is in the 5th volume

I did a comparative study of the diffzrent cycles transmitted, based on Tenné's compilation (considered as a reference afterwards as the Nyemdo tradition, and ended in the Mindröl Ling tradition, then flew back to Dingri and Dza Rongphu

Otherwise, the many systems credited to Dampa from various sources are classified as thor bu - many seem to be lost since long (a dus 'khor notably)

I mentioned in the Jonang thread the strange things found in some Mongol sadhana compilations, one is Dampa Sanggyé holding a huge scorpion, not a bad one
Gendün Gyatso's family had a special bcud len tradition from Dampa Sanggyé ... endless ...
Gö Lotsawa classifies all the brda etc... as part of the (earlier) Maitripa transmissions

- Zhi byed snga bar phyi gsum gyi skor
=
- The Tradition of Pha Dam-pa Saṅs-rgyas, A Treasured Collection of His Teachings transmitted by Thugs-sras Kun-dga'
- Reproduced from a Unique Collection of Manuscripts Preserved with 'Khrul-zhig Ri-po-che of Rong-phu Monastery at Diṅ-ri Glaṅ-skor
- Edited with an English Introduction by Barbara Nimri Aziz
- Druk Sherik Parkhang, Thimphu, 1979 - 5 vol.
- TBRC W23911
"Me and the sky don't hold views - Me and the river have no fixed practice
Me and the madman don't have a guide- Me and the rainbow have no experiences
Me, the sun and the moon have no certitudes - Me and the jewel bear no fruit" - Dampa Sanggyé as quoted by Domar Mingyur Dorjé (born 1675)
Malcolm
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it

Post by Malcolm »

nyonchung wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 11:21 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:49 pm
nyonchung wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:21 pm The most remarkable early example of careful reconstruction I know of is that of Gyelwa Tenné (1127-1217), who compiled biographies of masters of the zhijé tradition since Pha Dampa Sanggyé, the teachings they transmitted, the part of commentaries and additions that belong to succesive masters down to the few root instructions given by the Indian master. 5 volumes .
Tenné's own autobiography is a marvel.
Dzeng Dharmabodhi, a contemporary and student of Phadampa, expressed doubt at the huge number of volumes of Shije teachings present in the mid12th century, since Phadampa didn’t actually speak much and communicated mainly in symbols.
This is what Tenné did, Dzeng spent a short time with Dampa, but well before Dampa's final stay in Dingri (both Dzeng's and Dampa's biographies lack of a precise chronology - and if you find a precise chronology in a 12th or 13th century, well , somebody probably added it later)
I was referring to Kunzang Dorje’s 12th century account of klong sde where this episode is recounted. The point is that there was considerable contemporary doubt about the extent of Dampa’s work.
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it

Post by nyonchung »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:11 am
nyonchung wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 11:21 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:49 pm

Dzeng Dharmabodhi, a contemporary and student of Phadampa, expressed doubt at the huge number of volumes of Shije teachings present in the mid12th century, since Phadampa didn’t actually speak much and communicated mainly in symbols.
This is what Tenné did, Dzeng spent a short time with Dampa, but well before Dampa's final stay in Dingri (both Dzeng's and Dampa's biographies lack of a precise chronology - and if you find a precise chronology in a 12th or 13th century, well , somebody probably added it later)
I was referring to Kunzang Dorje’s 12th century account of klong sde where this episode is recounted. The point is that there was considerable contemporary doubt about the extent of Dampa’s work.
Probably the source for Gö Lotsawa =
"sLob dpon kun bzang gis mdzad pa'i rnam bshad che ba" according to Deb ther sngon po (vol. 1), p. 237
I have doubts on Dzeng's dates and Dampa's dates; following Gö Lotsawa, Dzeng is possibly b. 1064 -
Mel Kawachen (1126-1211) - dates safer - is the master of Künzang Dorjé in the zhi byed bar ma so lugs (don brgyud and the disciple of Shami Mönlam Bar (1085-1171), a key master of Tenné (so Künzang Dorjé and Tenné received the same lineage)
Künzang Dorjé is possibly just a little younger than Mel and Tenné (b. 1127) but not much more

Shami is the disciple of Sochung, direct disciple of Dampa, but also of Kor Nirupa (d. 1102?) - the first important master of Khyungpo Neljor, but this is another story ...

So Tenné, who had also his own doubts, did this remarquable clarification work, highlighting the original cycles of instructions ; otherwise, he was quite an exceptionnal character, his rang rnam is pretty atypic and comparable to some of the best French medieval literature. Freshness. Nothing of the somtimes rigid conventions of later rnam thar.
Could you please locate Künzang Dorjé's account?, it will be interesting to compare with Gö Lotsawa's version.

- Martin D. (1997), p. 33 mentions this account

Regards
Sorry everybody for the off-topic
Last edited by nyonchung on Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Me and the sky don't hold views - Me and the river have no fixed practice
Me and the madman don't have a guide- Me and the rainbow have no experiences
Me, the sun and the moon have no certitudes - Me and the jewel bear no fruit" - Dampa Sanggyé as quoted by Domar Mingyur Dorjé (born 1675)
Malcolm
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it

Post by Malcolm »

nyonchung wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:47 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:11 am
nyonchung wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 11:21 pm

This is what Tenné did, Dzeng spent a short time with Dampa, but well before Dampa's final stay in Dingri (both Dzeng's and Dampa's biographies lack of a precise chronology - and if you find a precise chronology in a 12th or 13th century, well , somebody probably added it later)
I was referring to Kunzang Dorje’s 12th century account of klong sde where this episode is recounted. The point is that there was considerable contemporary doubt about the extent of Dampa’s work.
Probably the source for Gö Lotsawa =
"sLob dpon kun bzang gis mdzad pa'i rnam bshad che ba" according to Deb ther sngon po (vol. 1), p. 237
I have doubts on Dzeng's dates and Dampa's dates; following Gö Lotsawa, Dzeng is possibly (1052-1168?), but maybe b. 1064 -
Mel Kawachen (1126-1211) - dates safer - is the master of Künzang Dorjé in the zhi byed bar ma so lugs (don brgyud and the disciple of Shami Mönlam Bar (1085-1171), a key master of Tenné (so Künzang Dorjé and Tenné received the same lineage)
Künzang Dorjé is possibly just a little younger than Mel and Tenné (b. 1127) but not much more

So Tenné did this remarquable clarification work, highlighting the original cycles of instructions ; otherwise, he was quite an exceptionnal character, his rang rnam is pretty atypic and comparable to some of the best French medieval literature. Freshness. Nothing of the conventions of later rnam thar.
Could you please locate Künzang Dorjé's account?, it can be interesting to compare with Gö Lotsawa's version.
- Martin D. (1997), p. 33 mentions this account

Regards
That makes it even more remarkable that Kunzang Dorje related Dzeng’s skepticism.

Kunzang Dorje’s account can be found in tne ‘bka ma, under the title rdo rje zam pa, Vajra bridge.
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nyonchung
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

Post by nyonchung »

Thanks

"That makes it even more remarkable that Kunzang Dorje related Dzeng’s skepticism."

I'll read the text, but it may mean that for all the skepticism (but the dam ngag Dzeng received are very close to the style of the collections selected by Tenné), Künzang Dorjé was probably thinking to have received a valid teaching, and, possibly Dzeng would have his disciple to concentrate mostly on the rDo rje zam pa transmission.
As for skepticism about Dampa Sanggyé, there was a lot around, and he was not averse to encourage it or play with it (like Thangtong Gyelpo later)
Practically, except this (difficult to date) meeting with Dzeng, a few other tranmsissions (in Phenpo, preceding the stay in Dingri) recovered by Tenné are also difficult to date) , most of what we know about Dampa is about his last years in Dingri.
The meeting with Machig is no exception - this is connected with her stay with Drapa Ngönshé, generally supposed to be born the same year as Marpa (doesn't fit very well)
Later rnam thar of Machig are of no practical (historiographical) use.

Regards
"Me and the sky don't hold views - Me and the river have no fixed practice
Me and the madman don't have a guide- Me and the rainbow have no experiences
Me, the sun and the moon have no certitudes - Me and the jewel bear no fruit" - Dampa Sanggyé as quoted by Domar Mingyur Dorjé (born 1675)
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