question on the types of blessing pills

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Fortyeightvows
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question on the types of blessing pills

Post by Fortyeightvows »

what is the difference between what is called dutsi and what is called chulen?
thank you in advance
pemachophel
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Re: question on the types of blessing pills

Post by pemachophel »

Chulen is for the practice of rasayana, rejuvenation, health, and longevity and also forms a part of the completion stage practice of going beyond physical sustenance. Dudtsi/men/jinlob is for liberation by taste. Although it contains many healing medicinals and one of its names is men/"medicine", it's spiritual power is pre-eminent. It contains many things besides herbs and minerals, including many, many sacred substances. It is used as an inner offering (as in the men of me-rak). It is also what physically consecrates the amrit in the kapala at a tshog. It is also used to consecrate "permanent" tormas and is also an essential ingredient in consecrating statues. It is also take just before or at the time of death when all life-saving medicine is useless. The virtues of dudtsi/men are truly various and wonderful!
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
Malcolm
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Re: question on the types of blessing pills

Post by Malcolm »

pemachophel wrote:Chulen is for the practice of rasayana, rejuvenation, health, and longevity and also forms a part of the completion stage practice of going beyond physical sustenance. Dudtsi/men/jinlob is for liberation by taste. Although it contains many healing medicinals and one of its names is men/"medicine", it's spiritual power is pre-eminent. It contains many things besides herbs and minerals, including many, many sacred substances. It is used as an inner offering (as in the men of me-rak). It is also what physically consecrates the amrit in the kapala at a tshog. It is also used to consecrate "permanent" tormas and is also an essential ingredient in consecrating statues. It is also take just before or at the time of death when all life-saving medicine is useless. The virtues of dudtsi/men are truly various and wonderful!
Actually, Dudtsi is for the inner offering;

myong grol, liberation through taste, does not exist outside of Dzogchen tantras.

People often conflate the two, but they are not actually the same thing.
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Re: question on the types of blessing pills

Post by pemachophel »

Loppon,

Are you saying dudtsi doesn't have a liberation through taste function? That would seem to contradict a number of my Teachers.
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Malcolm
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Re: question on the types of blessing pills

Post by Malcolm »

pemachophel wrote:Loppon,

Are you saying dudtsi doesn't have a liberation through taste function? That would seem to contradict a number of my Teachers.
Myong grol is one thing, bdud rtsi is another. For example, the Sakyapas have bdud rtsi pills for the inner offering, but they do not have myong grol.
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Re: question on the types of blessing pills

Post by pemachophel »

Here's a really good explanation of dudtsi. It is the same as what I've heard from my Teachers.

Some Words about the Mendrup Substances
by Lama Sonam Tsering Rinpoche

This is a short reminder addressed to the faithful students, dharma brothers and sisters, ordained and lay practitioners, male and female, of high and low status, all of you who want to enter the profound mandala of the group gathering practice connected with the profound ripening and liberating samaya substance düdtsi chömen (nectar medicine that makes all phenomena pure) here at Pema Osel Ling.
The pinnacle of the Buddhist teachings, the three collections of highest yoga tantras of the Secret Mantra Vajrayana, are differentiated from the common vehicles that use teachings from the Vinaya and Sutras, etc, because the Vajrayana has so many more techniques, greater methods, more profound meaning, less hardship, and the possibility of attaining buddhahood in one lifetime.
Düdtsi chömen, also called mendrup, is praised as the supreme samaya substance. It is a wish-fulfilling jewel that grants liberation without practicing, so among the four types of liberation it is called “liberation upon taste”. In Eight Volumes of Nectar it says,

The three realms are, from the beginning, the five nectars.
They are uncontrived, spontaneously present, perfectly enlightened.
The three realms of the three poisons are wisdom body, speech, and mind Because they are primordially pure nectar.
All phenomena that make up the three realms, including the five passions, the five sense pleasures, the five elements, and the five aggregates, are actually enlightened in their nature as the male and female deities of the Five Buddha Families. That is why it is said that,
They are primordially pure, self arisen, United in equality with all buddhas.

The Sanskrit word amrita, meaning deathless, is translated into Tibetan as düdtsi, or nectar, because it is a cure that clears away the fear of death. It is called düdtsi because the elixir (tsi) of primordial wisdom awareness is applied to the dualistic clinging (düd) of conceptual thought. In The Tantra of Pith Instructions it says,

Düd refers to self-clinging and the mass of conceptual thinking,
And tsi refers to self-awareness and the fact that samsara and enlightenment are equally pure. Because it is a medicine (men) that seals all phenomena (chö) of samsara and enlightenment with great wisdom, it is also called chömen.
All phenomena of samsara and enlightenment are wisdom medicine. If you partake of this symbolic phenomena-purifying medicine,
The passions and poisons will become medicine.
The subdivisions of düdtsi include the real düdtsi of the pure nature of all phenomena and the symbolic düdtsi, the samaya substance düdtsi. In The Nectar Tantra it says,
The five nectars are the main samaya substances. They are combined into medicine
With the eight major and thousand minor substances, And the elixir-essence samaya substances.

Important and sacred revealed treasure substances including the five types of relics, secret pills of the
five buddha families, and other düdtsi chömen samaya substances from previous great masters of the past are combined in the authentic and pure düdtsi chömen yeast substances from His Holiness Dudjom Jigdral Yeshe Dorje Rinpoche, His Holiness Chatral Rinpoche, His Holiness Dodrup Rinpoche, His Holiness Dungse Thinley Norbu Rinpoche, and His Holiness Dudjom Yangsi Sangye Pema Zhepa Drodul Rigdzin Thinley Drubpe De, which we are taking as our main foundation.

The physical creation of the medicine involves the eight major and thousand minor substances. The eight major substances are red sandalwood, malamanupatra, cloves, betel nut, saffron, nutmeg, camphor, and Chinese cinnamon. As for the minor medicines, in general all the essences of appearance and existence can be combined into medicine, so we have gathered all we could of the medicinal plants of China, Nepal, the Himalayan border regions, and other lands. Different types of meltable and non-meltable precious substances, special uncommon medicines that come from humans, winged animals, clawed animals, wild animals, domestic animals, aquatic animals, and animals that live below ground, the five sets of five things, different types of white and sweet foods, grains, and fruits are all okay to include, so we have gathered as much of them as we could. However, some poisonous things are also used as medicine sometimes, but it is taught that they should not be used because they create obstacles for the mendrup, so they are not included here. Whatever medicines we use, they will be authentic and of good quality, without defects such as being rotten or frost-damaged. We will only use ingredients that are not too old, are clean, and whose color, smell, and taste have not declined. There are some medicines that have to be harvested at certain times, or have their poisonous effects negated, or are difficult to identify, and we have followed the medical texts and doctors' oral instructions in gathering them from Nepal. In particular, there are representative substances that fulfill the wisdom intention of enlightened body, speech, mind, qualities, and activity. The basis is yellow myrobalan, baleric myrobalan, indian gooseberry, and saffron. The major and minor substances are white and black agarwood, nagi, bezoars, nodal silica from bamboo, cloves, nutmeg, white cardamom, black cardamom, other good and plant-based medicines, orchid root, purple bergenia, coriander, frankincense, musk, senna tora, zhosha, capsicum frutescens, pomegranate, walnut, sindhura, calcite, bitumen, sugarcane, honey, sugar, and whatever rare types of good medicines we can gather. This is a brief summary of the major and minor medicines that we have gathered according to the texts.

About the benefits of düdtsi chömen: In the root tantra it says,

Just coming into contact with it for a single instant Will bring health, happiness, and long-life.
Vigor, complexion, power, and charisma
Will increase and faculties and awareness will be clear. It will grant the ability to fly and
Invulnerability to harm from others.
One will be worthy of praise by everyone.

Another tantra says,

If you eat the great alchemical medicine
You will get supreme and common siddhis. Orgyen Rinpoche said,
It is the substance of offering to all the buddhas, The elixir that combines the lama and yidam,
And the heart blood of all the dakinis.
The benefits of eating it are inexpressible.
It bestows the qualities of the buddhas' five kayas.
Externally, it cures bodily illnesses and obstacles.
Internally, it purifies the five poisons of the passions.
It heals all broken and damaged samaya.
It causes realization of one's own nature as wisdom, the all-pervasive secret.
If shravakas and pratyekabuddhas eat it
They will attain the ten bhumis
And become great bodhisattvas of the Mahayana.
Offer it to the lama, they will grant their blessings.
Offer it to the yidam, they will grant siddhis.
Offer it to the buddhas, they will bestow their compassion.
Offer it to the dakinis, they will grant prophecies.

Whichever yogis eat it,
Outwardly it will eliminate their illnesses, obstacles, non-virtues and obscurations. Inwardly, their creation stage meditation visualizations will be clear with samadhi. Secretly, they will realize the self-awareness dharmakaya.
It will repair all their shortcomings and faults.
Keeping it on one's person will prevent untimely death.
It can even pacify deadly poisons.
Putting it on the body will clear away all illness and obstructors.
Burning it will cause all obstructors and obstacle-makers to flee.

About the qualities of the place where düdtsi chömen is created:

The place for accomplishing this
Is equal to the charnel ground Silwatsal.
All the dakas and dakinis gather there.
The ground will become holy.
Summer rains will fall and autumn crops and livestock will increase. Wherever the mendrup practice is accomplished, in that place Meditative concentration will dawn for whoever stays there.
When it comes time for them to die,
All of them, without any discrimination between sentient beings, Will come to abide on the level of the awareness-holders. Therefore, it is the supreme samaya substance.

Also,

The poor and pitiful will gain the siddhi of food and wealth if they eat it or keep it respectfully. The dying will gain the siddhi of immortality if they eat it or keep it respectfully.
The devout will gain supreme siddhis if they eat it or keep it respectfully.

Also,

It will be meaningful for whoever sees, hears, thinks of, or touches it.
Even if its shadow touches someone or they come in contact with a sesame seed's worth of it, It will cause them to be reborn in the higher realms.
It will plant a mustard seed of causes of virtue within them.
It will especially pacify diseases such as epilepsy, curses, obstructors and harmful spirits
And obstruct the obstacle-makers that try to harm others.
Those who have committed the five sins with immediate retribution and eat it will become
awareness-holders.

The benefits are described in an inconceivable number of tantras, including the New Translation Schools' Chakrasamvara, Hevajra, and Guyhasamaja tantras and the Early Translation School's Eight Volumes of Nectar and Guhyagarbha tantras.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
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Re: question on the types of blessing pills

Post by pemachophel »

I'm sure the above explanation will make many readers wonder where they can get some dudtsi. The answer is from your Teacher(s). As the supreme samaya substance, dudtsi should never be bought or sold. Whenever a Teacher gives some to a student, it is a great blessing. Once obtained, it is often carried as one's prized Dharma possession in one's gau (locket) for use in an emergency, during illness, or at the time of death.

Having been involved in a men-drub drub-chen (a dudtsi-empowering 24/7 retreat), I can say that simply gathering all the substances that go into making dudtsi costs thousands and thousands of dollars and can take years and years. Practitioners spend a lot of time and effort collecting dudtsi from really special Teachers, such as H.H. Dudjom Rinpoche. H.E. Chatral Rinpoche, H.E. Dodrub Rinpoche, etc. These days, when making dudtsi, it is common to create a sheet detailing all the samaya substances and ingredients that went into making it.

Just tasting dudtsi from a really special Lama can cause a practitioner to have all sorts of nyam (experiences) and thok (realizations). Those who are sensitive can definitely feel the differences in blessing of different dudtsi. (Not an insensitive cow like me!) Having tasted authentic dudtsi, one's Liberation is absolutely assured. Emaho!
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Re: question on the types of blessing pills

Post by ngodrup »

What Pema said is true.
I asked one of my own teachers while making dutsi men,
Why it is said that this is "only" a nyingma thing. After all,
other traditions have blessing pills, chenresig mantra pills, etc.
The answer was, "its because the view, the ritual and substance
standards are higher for doing this in the Nyingma." In other words,
they do similar things, but not drupchen, they may not be looking
for signs such as rainbows inside the shrine room....
Malcolm
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Re: question on the types of blessing pills

Post by Malcolm »

ngodrup wrote: The answer was, "its because the view, the ritual and substance
standards are higher for doing this in the Nyingma." .
The reason is that the theory is different. It has nothing to do with standards.
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Re: question on the types of blessing pills

Post by pemachophel »

Loppon,

Do you know if all texts for the manufacture and consecration of dudtsi are terma?

The only ones I know for sure are.
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Tsultrim T.
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Re: question on the types of blessing pills

Post by Tsultrim T. »

How does dudtsi exist in Gelug? A friend recently sent me some "Tamdrin dutsi".
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Re: question on the types of blessing pills

Post by jmlee369 »

In Gelug, I am not aware of any generic nectar (dudtsi) pill. Rather, we have the inner offering pill (nangchö rilbu) which is pretty much a requisite for those practising Highest Yoga Tantra, and vase pills of HYT and kriya tantra, which are different formulations of the 25 vase substances in pill form. There is also the chulen pill for doing chulen practice, and the famous mani pills which are blessed with recitations of mani mantras. It seems that HH the Dalai Lama's temple does produce a dutsi chömen pill as part of a medicine retreat, but I'm not clear what the nature of that pill is. I also happen to possess some pills from Ganden Jangtse which contain various substances such as tormas used in rituals performed by HH the Dalai Lama, substances from the two tutors, substances such as blessed vase water from the practices of deities of the four classes of tantra and the extensive consecration ritual, etc etc.

As for the Tamdrin dudtsi, it could be made from a collection of substances that were blessed through the practice of Hayagriva, most likely made at Sera Je.
Malcolm
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Re: question on the types of blessing pills

Post by Malcolm »

pemachophel wrote:Loppon,

Do you know if all texts for the manufacture and consecration of dudtsi are terma?

The only ones I know for sure are.
No, there are texts in Sakya written by Dragpa Gyaltsen and so on.
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Re: question on the types of blessing pills

Post by Malcolm »

jmlee369 wrote:In Gelug, I am not aware of any generic nectar (dudtsi) pill. Rather, we have the inner offering pill (nangchö rilbu) which is pretty much a requisite for those practising Highest Yoga Tantra, and vase pills of HYT and kriya tantra, which are different formulations of the 25 vase substances in pill form. There is also the chulen pill for doing chulen practice, and the famous mani pills which are blessed with recitations of mani mantras. It seems that HH the Dalai Lama's temple does produce a dutsi chömen pill as part of a medicine retreat, but I'm not clear what the nature of that pill is. I also happen to possess some pills from Ganden Jangtse which contain various substances such as tormas used in rituals performed by HH the Dalai Lama, substances from the two tutors, substances such as blessed vase water from the practices of deities of the four classes of tantra and the extensive consecration ritual, etc etc.

As for the Tamdrin dudtsi, it could be made from a collection of substances that were blessed through the practice of Hayagriva, most likely made at Sera Je.
This is a Nyingma system, so ultimately done according to the Nyingma tradition.
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Re: question on the types of blessing pills

Post by Adamantine »

Anyone know : I recieved some small irregular black pellet pills that look just like dutsi and they had
about five bright red pills mixed in-- from HH the DL at a kalachakra wang in Barcelona in 1994.
Would anyone know what these pills are specifically? Being so long ago, my memory is hazy as to what was
said at the time..
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Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: question on the types of blessing pills

Post by pemachophel »

Sorry, can't help. But your post underscores the importance of always labeling samaya substances as soon as/soon after you get them.
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Re: question on the types of blessing pills

Post by Adamantine »

pemachophel wrote:Sorry, can't help. But your post underscores the importance of always labeling samaya substances as soon as/soon after you get them.
I've had plenty of opportunity to learn that since.. But to be fair I was only 19 at the time and
wouldn't have even understood the term "samaya substances" let alone the explanation of what they were
(which I'm sure was given at the wang) or the proper context to interpret it in. Of course, age is relative to experience,
but I didn't grow up learning these things and had only begun studying Dharma a couple years before.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
TaTa
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Re: question on the types of blessing pills

Post by TaTa »

Someone told me that you can "multiply" myong groll pills by puting them in water and mixing that water with other whater and so forth. Is this usefull? Thanks
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Re: question on the types of blessing pills

Post by Palzang Jangchub »

I have some questions regarding the use of dutsi chömen in the Kagyu lineages, as what little I have comes from my Kagyu lamas. It's my understanding that the Nyingma & Kagyu orders were usually on good terms. The lineages of Karma Kamtsang, Neydo, Surmang, and Drikung in particular are known to have maintained a special relationship with their Nyingma counterparts. Examples of this include the Könchok Chidu being practiced during the 4 year retreat at Thrangu Yangtse Gompa in Namo Buddha, Namchö Sangye Menla being the go-to Medicine Buddha practice in Karma Kagyu, and the Phowa Jak-tsuk-ma for which the Drikung are famous being from terma and taught to them via Nyingma lamas. Some Kagyupas have even revealed terma themselves, such as the 3rd Gyalwang Karmapa and Gyalwang Rinchen Phuntsok.

Is the Kagyu use of dutsi as "Liberation thru Taste" perhaps due to this relationship? Are Kagyupas known to include the Dzogchen tantras in their recensions of the Kangyur & Tengyur, and to make use of them for things such as Mendrup Drubchens? :stirthepot:

Also, can anyone tell me more about the following dutsi chömen? I'm not sure exactly what each is most appropriately used for, and in what context. I will include the Tibetan, Wylie, and English (where possible) for clarity and ease of reference, though I've omitted the final words "bzhugs so" as I'm aware that's the honorific for "this contains..."

The Samaya Substance of Amrita, a Dharma medicine which brings Liberation when tasted
དམ་རྫས་མྱོང་གྲོལ་བདུད་རྩི་ཆོས་སྨན།
dam rdzas myong grol bdud rtsi chos sman

The Blessing Substance of the Seven Birth Mani Pill
དམ་རྫས་སྐྱེ་བདུད་རྩི་མ་ཎི་རིལ་བུ།
dam rdzas skye bdud rtsi ma Ni ril bu

The Cleansing Pill from among the Sacred Substances of the Great Seat
སྒར་ཆེན་རྟེན་ཁྲོད་ལས་བྱུང་བའི་ཁྲུས་རིལ་གྲིབ་གདོན་ཀུན་འཇོམས།
sgar chen rten khrod las byung ba'i khrus ril grib gdon kun 'joms

ཁྲ་འགུ་ཚེ་སྒྲུབ་ཐབས་ཤེས་ཁ་སྦྱོར་གྱི་སྒོ་ནས་བསྒྲུབས་པའི་ཚེ་རིལ།
khra 'gu tshe sgrub thabs shes kha sbyor gyi sgo nas bsgrubs pa'i tshe ril


Thank you in advance for your responses. If you'd be more comfortable discussing this with me one-on-one, please feel free to PM me.
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རྗེ་བཙུན་བླ་མ་མཁས་གྲུབ་ཀརྨ་ཆགས་མེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ། ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོཿ
TaTa
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Re: question on the types of blessing pills

Post by TaTa »

If someone has information on the above it would be helpfull. Thanks
Particularry : དམ་རྫས་མྱོང་གྲོལ་བདུད་རྩི་ཆོས་སྨན།
dam rdzas myong grol bdud rtsi chos sman
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