Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

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heart
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by heart »

Lay-Man wrote: Again, this is a relatively newer invention, to my knowledge. Likely 200-300 years old.
Yes, and your sources for this statement is? :smile:

/magnus
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by Nemo »

Codifying prostrations, Guru yoga, Vajrasattva and mandala offerings into a credential seems a bit odd. Do we really need more credentials? Most practitioners do all those things in some form everyday anyway. Wasn't it mostly a Gelug practice at first?
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by Lay-Man »

heart wrote:
Lay-Man wrote: Again, this is a relatively newer invention, to my knowledge. Likely 200-300 years old.
Yes, and your sources for this statement is? :smile:

/magnus
Well, I guess I am my own source! :smile:
I have yet to see Ngondro Commentary or manual written prior to the 17th/18th century which prescribes the 100,000 recitations as an accumulation requirement for preliminary practices.

If you have something, I would love to see it.

Cheers.
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by Malcolm »

Lay-Man wrote:
heart wrote:
Lay-Man wrote: Again, this is a relatively newer invention, to my knowledge. Likely 200-300 years old.
Yes, and your sources for this statement is? :smile:

/magnus
Well, I guess I am my own source! :smile:
I have yet to see Ngondro Commentary or manual written prior to the 17th/18th century which prescribes the 100,000 recitations as an accumulation requirement for preliminary practices.

If you have something, I would love to see it.
Look in Drikung Kagyu. This is merely one example.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
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heart
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by heart »

Lay-Man wrote:
heart wrote:
Lay-Man wrote: Again, this is a relatively newer invention, to my knowledge. Likely 200-300 years old.
Yes, and your sources for this statement is? :smile:

/magnus
Well, I guess I am my own source! :smile:
I have yet to see Ngondro Commentary or manual written prior to the 17th/18th century which prescribes the 100,000 recitations as an accumulation requirement for preliminary practices.

If you have something, I would love to see it.

Cheers.
I gave you 2 already from the 13th century, not good enough?

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by Vasana »

Malcolm wrote:
yagmort wrote:well i am not questioning benefits of ngöndro, i already done 90k prostrations and doing ~900 each day. my question is about history research of ngöndro.
Prostrations in the early history of Tibetan Buddhism seem to have been combined with purification practices. Sakya Pandita writes about this. He also points out that their yogic benefit is extraordinary.
Is there anywhere we can read of these yogic benefits of prostrations? Or generally speaking is it just that they help balance the various vayus?
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by Lay-Man »

Malcolm wrote:
Lay-Man wrote:
heart wrote:
Yes, and your sources for this statement is? :smile:

/magnus
Well, I guess I am my own source! :smile:
I have yet to see Ngondro Commentary or manual written prior to the 17th/18th century which prescribes the 100,000 recitations as an accumulation requirement for preliminary practices.

If you have something, I would love to see it.
Look in Drikung Kagyu. This is merely one example.
Ok thanks!
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by yagmort »

Lay-man will you please share your results?
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by Aemilius »

Lay-Man wrote:
Aemilius wrote:
Lay-Man wrote:
The 111,1111 accumulations are a new invention relatively speaking. My own research seems to indicate this was a product of the 18th century revitalization and codification of the Sarma Traditions associated Khyentse, Kongtrul and Wangpo.
In the Life of Tsongkhapa by Robert Thurman, he describes how Tsongkhapa practiced the preliminaries like prostrations, offering the mandala, etc ... And Tsongkhapa lived 1357... 1419.
According to Wikipedia the preliminary practices of Vajrasattva, Mandala offering, and Guru yoga existed already in India, in the tradition of Anuttara yoga tantra.

Perhaps there is some confusion created by my initial response to yagmort's question and I will attempt to clarify here.
Yagmort was asking about when the practice of actually accumulating 111,111 recitations of each of the 4 extraordinary practices associated with Ngondro came about. Again, this is a relatively newer invention, to my knowledge. Likely 200-300 years old.

That being said, of course the existence of preliminary practices in general go back to India. However, the wikipedia page is wrong in that the preliminaries as they were practiced in Tibet, while stemming from the 3 vehicles of Buddhism in India, were indeed a Tibetan invention (perhaps around the 10th or 11th century); that is the codification of the 4 extra-ordinary preliminary practices of Formal Refuge and Bodhicitta, Vajrasattva, Mandala and Guru Yoga. In particular, Vajrasattva, Mandala and Guru Yoga in whole are Tibetan constructs of Vajrayana implementation.

Hope this helps.
Thanks!
The Mahayana sutra of 35 Confession Buddhas prescribes confession and prostrations as a means of purification. There is an Indian commentary to it by Nagarjuna, or ascribed to Nagarjuna. Prostrations existed at the time of Buddha Shakyamuni, they are mentioned somewhere in the pali scriptures.
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They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by pemachophel »

In the beginning of many Mahayana sutras, the interlocutor is described as first prostrating to the Chom-den-de (i.e., Buddha) before sitting down and asking his or her question.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by Lay-Man »

yagmort wrote:so does anybody know when did the ngondro the way it is practiced today - that is accumulating 111000 of each -
first appear?

Well its been an interesting process of trying to explore these other sources that Malcom and Heart have offered.

Related to the texts referred to by Heart, I have not been able to dive into the cited texts without ordering them as I have found no versions online. Both texts are from much earlier time periods than I have found for other texts which is encouraging, however in looking at the index of each, they seem to address preliminary practices associated with the Mahasandhi approach, and I can see no mention of actual numerical accumulations anywhere.
I may try too buy the book which is a compilation of Longhorn Rabjam's.

With regards to an exploration of the Drikung Kagyu works, I reviewed Jigten Summons's Gon Chik, which has no expressed requirements for accumulations. I am looking into some commentaries, and have yet to find one which is from a similar time period.

So, if anyone can help point me to a source text, which is cited I would be much appreciative and will be more than happy to reframe my current hypothesis of this practice being 600-700 years old,as opposed to 200-300 years.

Cheers!
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by Malcolm »

Lay-Man wrote:
yagmort wrote:so does anybody know when did the ngondro the way it is practiced today - that is accumulating 111000 of each -
first appear?

Well its been an interesting process of trying to explore these other sources that Malcom and Heart have offered.

Related to the texts referred to by Heart, I have not been able to dive into the cited texts without ordering them as I have found no versions online. Both texts are from much earlier time periods than I have found for other texts which is encouraging, however in looking at the index of each, they seem to address preliminary practices associated with the Mahasandhi approach, and I can see no mention of actual numerical accumulations \!
Cyrus Sterns is of the opinion it is rather late. I am not as certain. For example, Taratnatha mentions doing 100,000 prostastions combined with refuge in this text.

tA ra nA tha , thub bstan dge legs rgya mtsho , tshogs gnyis rgya mtsho , 'jam dbyangs mkhyen rab rgya mtsho . "kha 1) thun mong gi sngon 'gro/." In jo nang mdo sngags rig pa'i dpe tshogs/ . TBRC W1PD95746. 20: 35 - 91. khreng tu'u: si khron dpe skrun tshogs pa / si khron mi rigs dpe skrun khang , 2009. http://tbrc.org/link?RID=O1PD95746|O1PD ... $W1PD95746

Taranatha is the late 16th-early 17th century, and he certainly did not invent the idea. I did not investigate whether other prelims had similar numbers assigned.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by Lay-Man »

Malcolm wrote:
Lay-Man wrote:
yagmort wrote:so does anybody know when did the ngondro the way it is practiced today - that is accumulating 111000 of each -
first appear?

Well its been an interesting process of trying to explore these other sources that Malcom and Heart have offered.

Related to the texts referred to by Heart, I have not been able to dive into the cited texts without ordering them as I have found no versions online. Both texts are from much earlier time periods than I have found for other texts which is encouraging, however in looking at the index of each, they seem to address preliminary practices associated with the Mahasandhi approach, and I can see no mention of actual numerical accumulations \!
Cyrus Sterns is of the opinion it is rather late. I am not as certain. For example, Taratnatha mentions doing 100,000 prostastions combined with refuge in this text.

tA ra nA tha , thub bstan dge legs rgya mtsho , tshogs gnyis rgya mtsho , 'jam dbyangs mkhyen rab rgya mtsho . "kha 1) thun mong gi sngon 'gro/." In jo nang mdo sngags rig pa'i dpe tshogs/ . TBRC W1PD95746. 20: 35 - 91. khreng tu'u: si khron dpe skrun tshogs pa / si khron mi rigs dpe skrun khang , 2009. http://tbrc.org/link?RID=O1PD95746|O1PD ... $W1PD95746

Taranatha is the late 16th-early 17th century, and he certainly did not invent the idea. I did not investigate whether other prelims had similar numbers assigned.
Thanks Malcom. This is certainly a good lead for sure. I will look more thoroughly. Thanks for the link.
I also explored much of the Drikung Kagyu texts I could find, including Gong Chik, and I didn't seem to find anything codified until around the 17th Century?

Dunno. I don't know why I get on these neurotic tangents, but any how the info is great!
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by Malcolm »

Lay-Man wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Lay-Man wrote:

Well its been an interesting process of trying to explore these other sources that Malcom and Heart have offered.

Related to the texts referred to by Heart, I have not been able to dive into the cited texts without ordering them as I have found no versions online. Both texts are from much earlier time periods than I have found for other texts which is encouraging, however in looking at the index of each, they seem to address preliminary practices associated with the Mahasandhi approach, and I can see no mention of actual numerical accumulations \!
Cyrus Sterns is of the opinion it is rather late. I am not as certain. For example, Taratnatha mentions doing 100,000 prostastions combined with refuge in this text.

tA ra nA tha , thub bstan dge legs rgya mtsho , tshogs gnyis rgya mtsho , 'jam dbyangs mkhyen rab rgya mtsho . "kha 1) thun mong gi sngon 'gro/." In jo nang mdo sngags rig pa'i dpe tshogs/ . TBRC W1PD95746. 20: 35 - 91. khreng tu'u: si khron dpe skrun tshogs pa / si khron mi rigs dpe skrun khang , 2009. http://tbrc.org/link?RID=O1PD95746|O1PD ... $W1PD95746

Taranatha is the late 16th-early 17th century, and he certainly did not invent the idea. I did not investigate whether other prelims had similar numbers assigned.
Thanks Malcom. This is certainly a good lead for sure. I will look more thoroughly. Thanks for the link.
I also explored much of the Drikung Kagyu texts I could find, including Gong Chik, and I didn't seem to find anything codified until around the 17th Century?

Dunno. I don't know why I get on these neurotic tangents, but any how the info is great!
Looks like I erred -- this text was written in the fifteenth rab 'buying, sometime in the nineteenth century.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by yagmort »

Layman, thank you for your efforts and time!

also thanks Malcolm for your attempts to shine the light on this subject too
Lay-Man wrote:...Related to the texts referred to by Heart, I have not been able to dive into the cited texts without ordering them as I have found no versions online...
perhaps magnus will finally unveil the info since he is faniliar with these books
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by heart »

yagmort wrote:Layman, thank you for your efforts and time!

also thanks Malcolm for your attempts to shine the light on this subject too
Lay-Man wrote:...Related to the texts referred to by Heart, I have not been able to dive into the cited texts without ordering them as I have found no versions online...
perhaps magnus will finally unveil the info since he is faniliar with these books
Perhaps I have misunderstood the issue here, is it the numbers (100.000) you are fixating on? Tibetans consider 100.000 a fair amount not really a lot. 100 millions is something they feel is a lot. I am pretty sure the practice of repeating prayers and mantras and counting the amount is as old as the history of Tantra in Tibet. I have no particular source for this nor have I ever been looking for one. The idea that accumulating merit and wisdom will be helpful for practicing the main part is likewise very old. This is quite clear in the books I linked to but they don't in particular mention the number 100.000 that I can recall.
If people feel they have difficulties accumulating the Ngondro it will not get a lot easier accumulating the numbers for the approach, close approach, accomplishment and great accomplishment of a Yidam practice where the numbers normally are considerably higher.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by lelopa »

heart wrote:
yagmort wrote:Layman, thank you for your efforts and time!

also thanks Malcolm for your attempts to shine the light on this subject too
Lay-Man wrote:...Related to the texts referred to by Heart, I have not been able to dive into the cited texts without ordering them as I have found no versions online...
perhaps magnus will finally unveil the info since he is faniliar with these books
.................................................................
.......................................................................
...................................................................
If people feel they have difficulties accumulating the Ngondro it will not get a lot easier accumulating the numbers for the approach, close approach, accomplishment and great accomplishment of a Yidam practice where the numbers normally are considerably higher.

/magnus
It is much easier to do - because no sports!
The ancient translators - Kawa Paltseg, Vairocana - all concentrated on meaning, on the real sence. Even if the words do not correspond perfectly between Sanskrit & Tibetan, they concentrated more on the essence. Those who translated later concentrated more on the literal text, on the words.
ChNN
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by yagmort »

yes magnus, finally! :hi: )) my question is "fixated" on numbers, or better say on accumulating 111000 of them.
by asking such a question i am not arguing about benefits or disadvantages of ngöndro. merely, as i am not a scholar myself, i am asking more informed and educated people.
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by Aemilius »

pemachophel wrote:In the beginning of many Mahayana sutras, the interlocutor is described as first prostrating to the Chom-den-de (i.e., Buddha) before sitting down and asking his or her question.
Sravakayana tradition knows two types of bowing, the bowing with respectful salutation of hands, añjali-kamma, and the five limbed prostration, pañc'anga-vandana. It is not clear if the second type of prostration occurs in the beginning of the Mahayana Sutras.
But it does occur in the Dipankara Jataka, which tells about the meeting of Sumedha (a previous existence of Gautama) and Buddha Dipankara: "Sumedha, the hermit, comes too, and at a marshy spot loosens his plaited hair, and spreads it out on the dirty ground, with his hempen garment and his cloak of skins, and lies with his face downward. Inspired with the wish that the exalted Buddha Dipankara with his host of disciples may step over him without having their feet soiled by mud. Prostrate on the ground he he resolves to become a Buddha one day and bring salvation to the world." (in B. Gosh: Buddha Dipankara Twentyfourth Predecessor of Gautama).
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by heart »

yagmort wrote:yes magnus, finally! :hi: )) my question is "fixated" on numbers, or better say on accumulating 111000 of them.
by asking such a question i am not arguing about benefits or disadvantages of ngöndro. merely, as i am not a scholar myself, i am asking more informed and educated people.
100.000 isn't considered a lot in Tibetan culture. Pretty sure that haven't changed the last 1000 years or so. If you prefer you can also do Ngöndro based on time like Dzongsar Khyentse's Ngondrogar, 2258 hours for a complete Chetsun Nyingtik Ngöndro.


/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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